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	<title>Comments on: Banks and Auditors Get a Free Pass From Supreme Court</title>
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		<title>By: Independent Accountant</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/01/banks-and-auditors-get-free-pass-from.html#comment-3091</link>
		<dc:creator>Independent Accountant</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jan 2008 03:16:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>The &quot;indirect&quot; issue is a canard.  Read Pinkerton, read Halberstam.  The issue is: did the entity participate in a conspiracy?  If so, it then becomes liable for all the co-conspirators&#039; acts.  It&#039;s that simple.  As Halberstam makes clear, the conspirator need not even have known of the injurious act to become liable for it.  Another judge on the Halberstam court was the well-known leftie, Robert Bork.  Imagine, Scalia and Bork endorsed Halberstam!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The &#8220;indirect&#8221; issue is a canard.  Read Pinkerton, read Halberstam.  The issue is: did the entity participate in a conspiracy?  If so, it then becomes liable for all the co-conspirators&#8217; acts.  It&#8217;s that simple.  As Halberstam makes clear, the conspirator need not even have known of the injurious act to become liable for it.  Another judge on the Halberstam court was the well-known leftie, Robert Bork.  Imagine, Scalia and Bork endorsed Halberstam!</p>
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		<title>By: ST</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/01/banks-and-auditors-get-free-pass-from.html#comment-3085</link>
		<dc:creator>ST</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jan 2008 17:49:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I agree with IA.  Here&#039;s a quote from the WaPo article.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;&quot;Justice Anthony M. Kennedy, writing for the majority, said stockholders had no knowledge of the actions of the two vendors and thus cannot show those companies&#039; actions influenced investors &quot;except in an indirect chain that we find too remote for liability.&#039;&#039; &quot;&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;This is just plain ridiculous.  The principal information stockholders get on which to base all decisions about a company is in the SEC filings.  The vendors took deliberate action to participate in the falsification of those filings i.e. fraud.  I don&#039;t get what is &quot;indirect&quot; about this chain.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with IA.  Here&#8217;s a quote from the WaPo article.</p>
<p>&#8220;Justice Anthony M. Kennedy, writing for the majority, said stockholders had no knowledge of the actions of the two vendors and thus cannot show those companies&#8217; actions influenced investors &#8220;except in an indirect chain that we find too remote for liability.&#8221; &#8220;</p>
<p>This is just plain ridiculous.  The principal information stockholders get on which to base all decisions about a company is in the SEC filings.  The vendors took deliberate action to participate in the falsification of those filings i.e. fraud.  I don&#8217;t get what is &#8220;indirect&#8221; about this chain.</p>
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		<title>By: Independent Accountant</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/01/banks-and-auditors-get-free-pass-from.html#comment-3083</link>
		<dc:creator>Independent Accountant</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jan 2008 13:51:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Slumlord:&lt;br/&gt;Grow up.  Judges can offer any rationalization they want.  The Attorney General of Texas, Dann, was interviewed on the radio this morning, 88.7 FM in Houston about the Supreme Court decision.  His opinion: crazy.  He says if five people conspire to rob a bank, and one plans the robbery who also drives the getaway car, he is not liable to the bank.  Why?  The tellers never saw him since he did not enter the bank. That&#039;s not the law.  That hasn&#039;t been the law of conspiracy since before the Republic was formed!  Congress did not have to provide for anything under securities law for people to sue.  That&#039;s nonsense.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Slumlord:<br />Grow up.  Judges can offer any rationalization they want.  The Attorney General of Texas, Dann, was interviewed on the radio this morning, 88.7 FM in Houston about the Supreme Court decision.  His opinion: crazy.  He says if five people conspire to rob a bank, and one plans the robbery who also drives the getaway car, he is not liable to the bank.  Why?  The tellers never saw him since he did not enter the bank. That&#8217;s not the law.  That hasn&#8217;t been the law of conspiracy since before the Republic was formed!  Congress did not have to provide for anything under securities law for people to sue.  That&#8217;s nonsense.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/01/banks-and-auditors-get-free-pass-from.html#comment-3080</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jan 2008 12:38:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>With the ascension of Roberts and Alito, predictability of consequences for actions has taken a major leap forward for those who favor managerial and crony capitalism.  The messy ambiguity that has bedeviled lawyers and courts gives way to Bushist black and white rules that, while not grounded in what used to pass as the rule of law based in principle (e.g. fraud doers are liable for fraud), are nonetheless very very clear.  If you have power, you win.  If words need to be interpreted by Bushist judges to ensure such victory, they will find those words.  &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Welcome to the world of result-driven jurisprudence.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>With the ascension of Roberts and Alito, predictability of consequences for actions has taken a major leap forward for those who favor managerial and crony capitalism.  The messy ambiguity that has bedeviled lawyers and courts gives way to Bushist black and white rules that, while not grounded in what used to pass as the rule of law based in principle (e.g. fraud doers are liable for fraud), are nonetheless very very clear.  If you have power, you win.  If words need to be interpreted by Bushist judges to ensure such victory, they will find those words.  </p>
<p>Welcome to the world of result-driven jurisprudence.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/01/banks-and-auditors-get-free-pass-from.html#comment-3075</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jan 2008 10:30:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/01/banks-and-auditors-get-a-free-pass-from-supreme-court/#comment-3075</guid>
		<description>@Independent Accountant.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;From the New York Times article on Oct 9 2007:&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;I&#039;ve highlighted the pertinent bit.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;The difference between aiding and abetting and a primary violation is crucial to the outcome of the case, Stoneridge Investment Partners v. Scientific-Atlanta Inc., No. 06-43, and was the subject of intense debate during the argument. The reason was that in a 1994 case, Central Bank of Denver v. First Interstate Bank, the Supreme Court ruled there was no “aiding and abetting” liability under the securities laws. &lt;b&gt;Congress responded by giving the S.E.C. the authority to bring such suits, while withholding the same authority from private litigation.&lt;/b&gt;&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;The evil lay with Congress, not the Supreme Court. Congress specifically legislated that private parties could not litigate.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Cheerio&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Slumlord</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Independent Accountant.</p>
<p>From the New York Times article on Oct 9 2007:</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve highlighted the pertinent bit.</p>
<p>The difference between aiding and abetting and a primary violation is crucial to the outcome of the case, Stoneridge Investment Partners v. Scientific-Atlanta Inc., No. 06-43, and was the subject of intense debate during the argument. The reason was that in a 1994 case, Central Bank of Denver v. First Interstate Bank, the Supreme Court ruled there was no “aiding and abetting” liability under the securities laws. <b>Congress responded by giving the S.E.C. the authority to bring such suits, while withholding the same authority from private litigation.</b></p>
<p>The evil lay with Congress, not the Supreme Court. Congress specifically legislated that private parties could not litigate.</p>
<p>Cheerio</p>
<p>Slumlord</p>
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		<title>By: Independent Accountant</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/01/banks-and-auditors-get-free-pass-from.html#comment-3067</link>
		<dc:creator>Independent Accountant</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jan 2008 07:55:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/01/banks-and-auditors-get-a-free-pass-from-supreme-court/#comment-3067</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t give a damn what Epstein thinks.  If you participate in a fraud, you should be liable.  That&#039;s my opinion.  That&#039;s also common law.  &quot;The knowing recipient of the fruits of a fraud inferentially ratifies the fraud therefore become liable&quot;.  That&#039;s from a Supreme Court case in about 1915.  I would have to look for the citation.  The case law on this is extensive.  It is clear to me we have multiple classes of citizens in this country.  If you wish to call me a Bolshevik, be my guest.  If you wish to call me a Jacobin, be my guest.  It you wish to say it is merely my policy preference, based on my balancing of the equities and deterrence that Citibank pay in the Enron case, be my guest.  It seems to me from a law and economics perspective, we would be better off with Citibank paying in Enron.  Why? It would be the &quot;least cost fraud exposer&quot;.  As the prophet Milton Friedman used to say, &quot;If you want more of something subsidize it, if you want less penalize it&quot;.  This decision will increase corporate fraud and by decreasing the plaintiffs bar&#039;s incentive to go after fraudsters, decrease the SEC&#039;s incentives to police them.  Further, I think the SEC is a classic example of &quot;regulatory capture&quot;.  &lt;br/&gt;As a matter of fact, there is a concept in RICO called, drumroll please, &quot;GROUP PUBLISHED FINANCIAL STATEMENTS&quot;.  I would go further than the plaintiffs in Stoneridge and automatically make a financial institution which enagages in any &quot;structured finance&quot; transaction, liable under this concept.  If the financial institution doesn&#039;t want the liablilty, avoid the transaction.  Now Mencius, feel free to call me a Maoist.  You&#039;ll not change my mind.&lt;br/&gt;Only contract law Mencius, not tort law.  There is a wonderful law review article, my favorite, &quot;The Path of the Law&quot;, 10 Harvard Law Review 457, 1897, Holmes, Oliver.  It&#039;s also Richard Posner&#039;s favorite.  A paraphrase, &quot;If you want to understand the law, you must understand it as a bad man.  He only knows if he does something he may face an undesireable consequence, going to prison or paying money&quot;.  That&#039;s all he knows.   &lt;br/&gt;I concluded Epstein is &quot;a shill of the plutocracy&quot; decades ago.&lt;br/&gt;Yves, I didn&#039;t realize you sympathized with Jett.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t give a damn what Epstein thinks.  If you participate in a fraud, you should be liable.  That&#8217;s my opinion.  That&#8217;s also common law.  &#8220;The knowing recipient of the fruits of a fraud inferentially ratifies the fraud therefore become liable&#8221;.  That&#8217;s from a Supreme Court case in about 1915.  I would have to look for the citation.  The case law on this is extensive.  It is clear to me we have multiple classes of citizens in this country.  If you wish to call me a Bolshevik, be my guest.  If you wish to call me a Jacobin, be my guest.  It you wish to say it is merely my policy preference, based on my balancing of the equities and deterrence that Citibank pay in the Enron case, be my guest.  It seems to me from a law and economics perspective, we would be better off with Citibank paying in Enron.  Why? It would be the &#8220;least cost fraud exposer&#8221;.  As the prophet Milton Friedman used to say, &#8220;If you want more of something subsidize it, if you want less penalize it&#8221;.  This decision will increase corporate fraud and by decreasing the plaintiffs bar&#8217;s incentive to go after fraudsters, decrease the SEC&#8217;s incentives to police them.  Further, I think the SEC is a classic example of &#8220;regulatory capture&#8221;.  <br />As a matter of fact, there is a concept in RICO called, drumroll please, &#8220;GROUP PUBLISHED FINANCIAL STATEMENTS&#8221;.  I would go further than the plaintiffs in Stoneridge and automatically make a financial institution which enagages in any &#8220;structured finance&#8221; transaction, liable under this concept.  If the financial institution doesn&#8217;t want the liablilty, avoid the transaction.  Now Mencius, feel free to call me a Maoist.  You&#8217;ll not change my mind.<br />Only contract law Mencius, not tort law.  There is a wonderful law review article, my favorite, &#8220;The Path of the Law&#8221;, 10 Harvard Law Review 457, 1897, Holmes, Oliver.  It&#8217;s also Richard Posner&#8217;s favorite.  A paraphrase, &#8220;If you want to understand the law, you must understand it as a bad man.  He only knows if he does something he may face an undesireable consequence, going to prison or paying money&#8221;.  That&#8217;s all he knows.   <br />I concluded Epstein is &#8220;a shill of the plutocracy&#8221; decades ago.<br />Yves, I didn&#8217;t realize you sympathized with Jett.</p>
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		<title>By: Mencius Moldbug</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/01/banks-and-auditors-get-free-pass-from.html#comment-3066</link>
		<dc:creator>Mencius Moldbug</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jan 2008 07:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>See also &lt;a HREF=&quot;http://www.pointoflaw.com/columns/archives/004373.php&quot; REL=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Richard Epstein&lt;/a&gt;, who is surely one of the US&#039;s leading legal scholars.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Perhaps Professor Epstein, too, is a shill of the plutocracy?&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Surely reasonable people can disagree on this case.  I find it distressing that this doesn&#039;t seem clear to you, and that you feel the need or at least the desire to shower those who do disagree with a stream of Vyshinskyesque rhetoric.  There are more things under heaven and earth, etc.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>See also <a HREF="http://www.pointoflaw.com/columns/archives/004373.php" REL="nofollow">Richard Epstein</a>, who is surely one of the US&#8217;s leading legal scholars.</p>
<p>Perhaps Professor Epstein, too, is a shill of the plutocracy?</p>
<p>Surely reasonable people can disagree on this case.  I find it distressing that this doesn&#8217;t seem clear to you, and that you feel the need or at least the desire to shower those who do disagree with a stream of Vyshinskyesque rhetoric.  There are more things under heaven and earth, etc.</p>
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		<title>By: Mencius Moldbug</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/01/banks-and-auditors-get-free-pass-from.html#comment-3065</link>
		<dc:creator>Mencius Moldbug</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jan 2008 06:52:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/01/banks-and-auditors-get-a-free-pass-from-supreme-court/#comment-3065</guid>
		<description>If this is an example of anything, it&#039;s an example of the confusion of law and righteousness.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Law - especially civil law - does not exist to punish wickedness wherever it may be. It exists to establish predictable consequences for actions.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Was what Motorola and Scientific-Atlanta did wicked? Perhaps. Should they be liable for it? Um, I think it depends on the law. Do you know the law in the matter? I am not a lawyer and I don&#039;t, so I have no opinion on it. However, I find the likes of &lt;a HREF=&quot;http://www.businessassociationsblog.com/lawandbusiness/comments/stoneridge_decided/&quot; REL=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Bainbridge&lt;/a&gt; quite credible:&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;&lt;i&gt;Stephen Bainbridge, William D. Warren Professor of Law at the University of California at Los Angeles, who has written extensively about Stoneridge, said the case exemplifies European perceptions of capricious litigation risk when doing business in the United States.&lt;br/&gt;“[The defendants] allegedly knew this was essentially a straw man transaction for accounting considerations, but they never lied to the investors and that is what the securities laws are designed to address,” Bainbridge said.&lt;br/&gt;“It’s the kind of case that conveys the notion our law casts a very broad net and you face significant liability risks [in the United States] that are not present elsewhere,” he said. “Companies find they can raise capital from investors who will purchase their securities even in jurisdictions that seemingly offer fewer protections. Maybe the investors are making a big mistake, but the fact is investors are buying those securities, so the question is: Have we gone overboard here in the U.S.?”&lt;/i&gt;&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;And if you really think that executives at the likes of Mot and SA go around openly scoffing at the law or boasting, like H.R. Haldeman, of dancing through it like a minefield, you know a lot more about the corporate culture of American finance than about the actual productive sector. I realize that the latter is small and getting smaller, and perhaps it can just be ignored. But...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If this is an example of anything, it&#8217;s an example of the confusion of law and righteousness.</p>
<p>Law &#8211; especially civil law &#8211; does not exist to punish wickedness wherever it may be. It exists to establish predictable consequences for actions.</p>
<p>Was what Motorola and Scientific-Atlanta did wicked? Perhaps. Should they be liable for it? Um, I think it depends on the law. Do you know the law in the matter? I am not a lawyer and I don&#8217;t, so I have no opinion on it. However, I find the likes of <a HREF="http://www.businessassociationsblog.com/lawandbusiness/comments/stoneridge_decided/" REL="nofollow">Bainbridge</a> quite credible:</p>
<p><i>Stephen Bainbridge, William D. Warren Professor of Law at the University of California at Los Angeles, who has written extensively about Stoneridge, said the case exemplifies European perceptions of capricious litigation risk when doing business in the United States.<br />“[The defendants] allegedly knew this was essentially a straw man transaction for accounting considerations, but they never lied to the investors and that is what the securities laws are designed to address,” Bainbridge said.<br />“It’s the kind of case that conveys the notion our law casts a very broad net and you face significant liability risks [in the United States] that are not present elsewhere,” he said. “Companies find they can raise capital from investors who will purchase their securities even in jurisdictions that seemingly offer fewer protections. Maybe the investors are making a big mistake, but the fact is investors are buying those securities, so the question is: Have we gone overboard here in the U.S.?”</i></p>
<p>And if you really think that executives at the likes of Mot and SA go around openly scoffing at the law or boasting, like H.R. Haldeman, of dancing through it like a minefield, you know a lot more about the corporate culture of American finance than about the actual productive sector. I realize that the latter is small and getting smaller, and perhaps it can just be ignored. But&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Yves Smith</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/01/banks-and-auditors-get-free-pass-from.html#comment-3063</link>
		<dc:creator>Yves Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jan 2008 05:27:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/01/banks-and-auditors-get-a-free-pass-from-supreme-court/#comment-3063</guid>
		<description>Independent Accountant,&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Too bad there aren&#039;t any more states where you could practice law just by passing the bar exam (assuming, of course, that you did want to practice law, but if nothing else being able to write your own demand letters and other nastygrams has certain advantages).&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;I wanted to go back to your comment some time ago about Jett. I&#039;m sorry if it wasn&#039;t clear, but I thought he was treated badly too. I&#039;m no expert in SEC sanctions, but a books and records violation is ridiculous. I assume you&#039;d have to be a firm principal for that to apply, and he wasn&#039;t.  The system made the errors, not him. It isn&#039;t clear to me still whether he knowingly gamed the system or not (but if he understood the profits were phony, you would think he&#039;d recognize the gig had to be up someday).  But regardless, the firm did not lose money, merely stupidly paid him too much in bonuses. Since when is that a crime?&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;My beef was quite different, however:  there is no scenario under which Jett can be a bad guy and his boss, Cerullo, be blameless, yet that is precisely where things came out. Jett made no effort to hide his actions. Everything was in full view, but management decided to play along with the fiction that there were zillions of arbitrage profits to be found in govvies. Appalling.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Independent Accountant,</p>
<p>Too bad there aren&#8217;t any more states where you could practice law just by passing the bar exam (assuming, of course, that you did want to practice law, but if nothing else being able to write your own demand letters and other nastygrams has certain advantages).</p>
<p>I wanted to go back to your comment some time ago about Jett. I&#8217;m sorry if it wasn&#8217;t clear, but I thought he was treated badly too. I&#8217;m no expert in SEC sanctions, but a books and records violation is ridiculous. I assume you&#8217;d have to be a firm principal for that to apply, and he wasn&#8217;t.  The system made the errors, not him. It isn&#8217;t clear to me still whether he knowingly gamed the system or not (but if he understood the profits were phony, you would think he&#8217;d recognize the gig had to be up someday).  But regardless, the firm did not lose money, merely stupidly paid him too much in bonuses. Since when is that a crime?</p>
<p>My beef was quite different, however:  there is no scenario under which Jett can be a bad guy and his boss, Cerullo, be blameless, yet that is precisely where things came out. Jett made no effort to hide his actions. Everything was in full view, but management decided to play along with the fiction that there were zillions of arbitrage profits to be found in govvies. Appalling.</p>
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		<title>By: Independent Accountant</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/01/banks-and-auditors-get-free-pass-from.html#comment-3062</link>
		<dc:creator>Independent Accountant</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jan 2008 05:07:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/01/banks-and-auditors-get-a-free-pass-from-supreme-court/#comment-3062</guid>
		<description>You are welcome.  I do litigation support among other things, and without exaggeration have read: 10,000 cases, 800 law review articles and 150 law books in my life.  If the public knew what really goes on in the courts, who knows what it would do, but it wouldn&#039;t be pretty.  If any of your readers want some &quot;intellectual exercise&quot;, read some of Richard Posner&#039;s books on law and economics.  He&#039;s in a class by himself.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You are welcome.  I do litigation support among other things, and without exaggeration have read: 10,000 cases, 800 law review articles and 150 law books in my life.  If the public knew what really goes on in the courts, who knows what it would do, but it wouldn&#8217;t be pretty.  If any of your readers want some &#8220;intellectual exercise&#8221;, read some of Richard Posner&#8217;s books on law and economics.  He&#8217;s in a class by himself.</p>
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