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	<title>Comments on: &quot;Falling Interest Rates Explain Rising Commodity Prices&quot;</title>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/03/falling-interest-rates-explain-rising.html#comment-5484</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Mar 2008 02:15:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/03/falling-interest-rates-explain-rising-commodity-prices/#comment-5484</guid>
		<description>Given the popularity of models comparing interest rate levels with equity prices, I guess real interest rate levels are a refinement of the analysis. And there is clearly a positive relationship&lt;br/&gt;To this I&#039;d add issues like minimal investment to natural resource supply since the last natural resource boom/bust. Also, examine the behavior of the gold companies since then. (Better to sell forward than spot.) But something&#039;s changed; gold companies are now selling spot rather than forward.&lt;br/&gt;Then let&#039;s look at the weather. Sure hasn&#039;t been good for grains in the past year or so. Just in time inventories; aren&#039;t stockpiles at decades&#039; low levels???? On top of the disastorous US biofuel policies, do we wonder why grain commodity prices have soared? Sure hope not. Interest rate related? Maybe in part.&lt;br/&gt;Does the interest rate theory explain contango and backwardation? Can it confront the current oil market in which 80% of reserves are controlled by entities who have no interest in long term profitability.&lt;br/&gt;And how would this theory deal with the piling on of &quot;speculative&quot; investors who favour &quot;momentum theories&quot;?&lt;br/&gt;Finally, the second chart purports to demonstrate the relationship between real interest rates and commodity prices; the drawn line may have some theoretical value, but as an (niave?) investor it appears to have a curious (incestuous perhaps?) relationship.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Given the popularity of models comparing interest rate levels with equity prices, I guess real interest rate levels are a refinement of the analysis. And there is clearly a positive relationship<br />To this I&#8217;d add issues like minimal investment to natural resource supply since the last natural resource boom/bust. Also, examine the behavior of the gold companies since then. (Better to sell forward than spot.) But something&#8217;s changed; gold companies are now selling spot rather than forward.<br />Then let&#8217;s look at the weather. Sure hasn&#8217;t been good for grains in the past year or so. Just in time inventories; aren&#8217;t stockpiles at decades&#8217; low levels???? On top of the disastorous US biofuel policies, do we wonder why grain commodity prices have soared? Sure hope not. Interest rate related? Maybe in part.<br />Does the interest rate theory explain contango and backwardation? Can it confront the current oil market in which 80% of reserves are controlled by entities who have no interest in long term profitability.<br />And how would this theory deal with the piling on of &#8220;speculative&#8221; investors who favour &#8220;momentum theories&#8221;?<br />Finally, the second chart purports to demonstrate the relationship between real interest rates and commodity prices; the drawn line may have some theoretical value, but as an (niave?) investor it appears to have a curious (incestuous perhaps?) relationship.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/03/falling-interest-rates-explain-rising.html#comment-5482</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Mar 2008 01:32:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/03/falling-interest-rates-explain-rising-commodity-prices/#comment-5482</guid>
		<description>I would argue that psychology is as important as interest rates.  Given the current economic climate, commodities seem like a good place to invest money.  At some point, the bubble will burst, and investors will switch back to currency or something similar.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;AA</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would argue that psychology is as important as interest rates.  Given the current economic climate, commodities seem like a good place to invest money.  At some point, the bubble will burst, and investors will switch back to currency or something similar.</p>
<p>AA</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/03/falling-interest-rates-explain-rising.html#comment-5470</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Mar 2008 20:05:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/03/falling-interest-rates-explain-rising-commodity-prices/#comment-5470</guid>
		<description>well, hello, commodities rise when real interest rates fall? Well, DOH! Dude -  what a startling academic insight - and , hey, queen victoria`s dead too!      we have been pointing this truism out to people since we started investing in them 4-5 yrs ago and the market clearly clued into this when the current (late?) rally started the day the Fed first cut hte dicount rate back in august.... really, we expect more of this blog!&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;SC</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>well, hello, commodities rise when real interest rates fall? Well, DOH! Dude &#8211;  what a startling academic insight &#8211; and , hey, queen victoria`s dead too!      we have been pointing this truism out to people since we started investing in them 4-5 yrs ago and the market clearly clued into this when the current (late?) rally started the day the Fed first cut hte dicount rate back in august&#8230;. really, we expect more of this blog!</p>
<p>SC</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/03/falling-interest-rates-explain-rising.html#comment-5467</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Mar 2008 16:57:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/03/falling-interest-rates-explain-rising-commodity-prices/#comment-5467</guid>
		<description>Commodity prices have not all moved up at the same rate.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Go to stockcharts.com and run a chart of $GOLD:$WTIC, or go look at the chart here: http://www.321energy.com/editorials/mckenziebrown/mckenziebrown031108.html .&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;If you have access to charts comparing prices of various grains to oil, that would be useful to look at too. Or, you can run a chart of DBA:$WTIC.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;What you will see is that the gold:oil ratio has been declining since oil production plateaued in spring of 2004--in other words, oil prices have been rising faster than gold prices. Oil prices have also been rising faster than ag prices.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;The trend is clear despite a year of flat oil prices that began in August of 2006, and was caused by the Goldman Sachs reweighting of the GSCI. That forced disinvestment in gasoline longs, and was a brilliant short-term way to rig gasoline and oil prices before the 2006 elections. We&#039;re still not back to the same level of specs in gasoline, although we&#039;re getting closer.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;The trend will be even clearer in another year or two.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;So, it&#039;s not correct that lower interest rates have raised commodity prices at the same rate, as you would expect to see if lower interest rates were the driver of rising commodity prices.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;I could write a 30-page post on this subject, but obviously there&#039;s not enough space here for it.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;The belief in a commodity &quot;bubble&quot; due to Fed policy has become the conventional wisdom. That&#039;s a shame, because it will keep people from smart hedges for their futures.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Yves, you don&#039;t have to trade commodities to hedge--buy some shares in something stable, like a good royalty trust. (Be sure to read the annual reports of any trust you&#039;re considering, and choose something with a low production decline rate--like 3%). Your share price and dividends go up with the price of oil and/or natural gas, and you don&#039;t have the headaches of trading. &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Or try options on oil futures: http://www.energyinvestmentstrategies.com/2007/12/04/eis-newsletter-8-december-2007/ &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Moe Gamble</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Commodity prices have not all moved up at the same rate.</p>
<p>Go to stockcharts.com and run a chart of $GOLD:$WTIC, or go look at the chart here: <a href="http://www.321energy.com/editorials/mckenziebrown/mckenziebrown031108.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.321energy.com/editorials/mckenziebrown/mckenziebrown031108.html</a> .</p>
<p>If you have access to charts comparing prices of various grains to oil, that would be useful to look at too. Or, you can run a chart of DBA:$WTIC.</p>
<p>What you will see is that the gold:oil ratio has been declining since oil production plateaued in spring of 2004&#8211;in other words, oil prices have been rising faster than gold prices. Oil prices have also been rising faster than ag prices.</p>
<p>The trend is clear despite a year of flat oil prices that began in August of 2006, and was caused by the Goldman Sachs reweighting of the GSCI. That forced disinvestment in gasoline longs, and was a brilliant short-term way to rig gasoline and oil prices before the 2006 elections. We&#8217;re still not back to the same level of specs in gasoline, although we&#8217;re getting closer.</p>
<p>The trend will be even clearer in another year or two.</p>
<p>So, it&#8217;s not correct that lower interest rates have raised commodity prices at the same rate, as you would expect to see if lower interest rates were the driver of rising commodity prices.</p>
<p>I could write a 30-page post on this subject, but obviously there&#8217;s not enough space here for it.</p>
<p>The belief in a commodity &#8220;bubble&#8221; due to Fed policy has become the conventional wisdom. That&#8217;s a shame, because it will keep people from smart hedges for their futures.</p>
<p>Yves, you don&#8217;t have to trade commodities to hedge&#8211;buy some shares in something stable, like a good royalty trust. (Be sure to read the annual reports of any trust you&#8217;re considering, and choose something with a low production decline rate&#8211;like 3%). Your share price and dividends go up with the price of oil and/or natural gas, and you don&#8217;t have the headaches of trading. </p>
<p>Or try options on oil futures: <a href="http://www.energyinvestmentstrategies.com/2007/12/04/eis-newsletter-8-december-2007/" rel="nofollow">http://www.energyinvestmentstrategies.com/2007/12/04/eis-newsletter-8-december-2007/</a> </p>
<p>Moe Gamble</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/03/falling-interest-rates-explain-rising.html#comment-5465</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Mar 2008 15:01:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/03/falling-interest-rates-explain-rising-commodity-prices/#comment-5465</guid>
		<description>Many people claim the rise in commodity prices are due to the growth in China and the other emerging markets and has very little to do with negative real rates in the US.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;But lets look at this another way:&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;What is causing the stellar growth in China?   Massive money growth.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;What is causing massive money growth in China?  The Dollar peg.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Why the Dollar peg?  Because private investors don&#039;t want to own Dollars when real rates are negative.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;So its the same thing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Many people claim the rise in commodity prices are due to the growth in China and the other emerging markets and has very little to do with negative real rates in the US.</p>
<p>But lets look at this another way:</p>
<p>What is causing the stellar growth in China?   Massive money growth.</p>
<p>What is causing massive money growth in China?  The Dollar peg.</p>
<p>Why the Dollar peg?  Because private investors don&#8217;t want to own Dollars when real rates are negative.</p>
<p>So its the same thing.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/03/falling-interest-rates-explain-rising.html#comment-5460</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Mar 2008 14:26:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/03/falling-interest-rates-explain-rising-commodity-prices/#comment-5460</guid>
		<description>I agree with you, anonymous at 8:11 AM.  I too don&#039;t know why this is controversial.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;What I do believe is controversial is what the true &quot;real interest rate&quot; might be.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;John Williams over at Shadowstats.com makes the argument that, if the federal government had not changed the methodology by which the CPI is calculated, inflation would now be running at 12%, instead of the 4% the that is being reported.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;I think there is also the speculation that there is no limit what the current administration will do to bail out investment banks that have engaged in highly speculative and highly leveraged investment activities, even if the consequence is inflation.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;So there is not only belief that inflation is much greater than what the government is trying to make the American people believe, but the fed is actively courting even more inflation in the future.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with you, anonymous at 8:11 AM.  I too don&#8217;t know why this is controversial.</p>
<p>What I do believe is controversial is what the true &#8220;real interest rate&#8221; might be.</p>
<p>John Williams over at Shadowstats.com makes the argument that, if the federal government had not changed the methodology by which the CPI is calculated, inflation would now be running at 12%, instead of the 4% the that is being reported.</p>
<p>I think there is also the speculation that there is no limit what the current administration will do to bail out investment banks that have engaged in highly speculative and highly leveraged investment activities, even if the consequence is inflation.</p>
<p>So there is not only belief that inflation is much greater than what the government is trying to make the American people believe, but the fed is actively courting even more inflation in the future.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/03/falling-interest-rates-explain-rising.html#comment-5452</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Mar 2008 12:11:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/03/falling-interest-rates-explain-rising-commodity-prices/#comment-5452</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t know why this is controversial. When returns on money are negative it is rational for people not to swap their goods for it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t know why this is controversial. When returns on money are negative it is rational for people not to swap their goods for it.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/03/falling-interest-rates-explain-rising.html#comment-5450</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Mar 2008 11:42:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/03/falling-interest-rates-explain-rising-commodity-prices/#comment-5450</guid>
		<description>Yves, Your right.  Lower interest rates encourage the leveraging game (the carry trade) and the price signal (even though it is objectively indistiguishable from noise) from the market is that commodities are the palce to make money in this trade.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yves, Your right.  Lower interest rates encourage the leveraging game (the carry trade) and the price signal (even though it is objectively indistiguishable from noise) from the market is that commodities are the palce to make money in this trade.</p>
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		<title>By: Yves Smith</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/03/falling-interest-rates-explain-rising.html#comment-5447</link>
		<dc:creator>Yves Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Mar 2008 09:02:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>The rise last year may be warranted (may, I am not at all certain of the fundamentals (opinion among supposed experts is divided on many commodities) and not deep enough into the art to know which contracts are more easily gamed but the action since the beginning of the year looks pretty frothy. Today in line at a store I heard a guy who looked to be blue collar talking about commodities. Another sign of speculative excess.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;We have had deleveraging everywhere. But the last leverage game in town is commodities, since they are exchange traded. So a speculator (say retail or hedge funds with very broad mandates) could use little to no bank borrowings and still be highly geared just by putting down not much more than the contract minimum margin. And you get the interest on your T-bills too.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;BTW, historically, 70% of the retail customers who trade futures win up losing money. I include myself in that statistic, a lesson learned many years ago.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The rise last year may be warranted (may, I am not at all certain of the fundamentals (opinion among supposed experts is divided on many commodities) and not deep enough into the art to know which contracts are more easily gamed but the action since the beginning of the year looks pretty frothy. Today in line at a store I heard a guy who looked to be blue collar talking about commodities. Another sign of speculative excess.</p>
<p>We have had deleveraging everywhere. But the last leverage game in town is commodities, since they are exchange traded. So a speculator (say retail or hedge funds with very broad mandates) could use little to no bank borrowings and still be highly geared just by putting down not much more than the contract minimum margin. And you get the interest on your T-bills too.</p>
<p>BTW, historically, 70% of the retail customers who trade futures win up losing money. I include myself in that statistic, a lesson learned many years ago.</p>
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		<title>By: vlade</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/03/falling-interest-rates-explain-rising.html#comment-5446</link>
		<dc:creator>vlade</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Mar 2008 08:25:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/03/falling-interest-rates-explain-rising-commodity-prices/#comment-5446</guid>
		<description>How about &quot;speculative bubble&quot;? when a lot of freely-sloshing money looks for a home, giving up on the previous bubbles of .com or real-estate (which, of course, has also hard fundamentals in that there&#039;s only limited amount of habitable space on the planet, innit?), commodities might be just the latest tent they found (that is not to say that the upward trend isn&#039;t there, but the generic upward trend is in all assets in the raising population scenario)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How about &#8220;speculative bubble&#8221;? when a lot of freely-sloshing money looks for a home, giving up on the previous bubbles of .com or real-estate (which, of course, has also hard fundamentals in that there&#8217;s only limited amount of habitable space on the planet, innit?), commodities might be just the latest tent they found (that is not to say that the upward trend isn&#8217;t there, but the generic upward trend is in all assets in the raising population scenario)</p>
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