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	<title>Comments on: Bail Out Housing to Salve Damaged Psyches</title>
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		<title>By: macndub</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/05/bail-out-housing-to-salve-damaged.html#comment-8271</link>
		<dc:creator>macndub</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 May 2008 03:20:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/05/bail-out-housing-to-salve-damaged-psyches/#comment-8271</guid>
		<description>You know, Yves, it takes me as much time to read 26 comment on this site as it takes me to read 5 times that number on others&#039;.  You&#039;ve created a wonderful thing here, and I hope the riffraff and flamebaiters continue to stay off.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;S said, &lt;i/&gt;Shiller sounds like a moron.&lt;/i&gt;&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;He&#039;s not.  That&#039;s part of what&#039;s so disappointing about his op-ed.  The good news is that if we&#039;re keeping people in their homes in order to prevent stress (and where does that end... do I have to buy them a jet ski too?  Maybe that fancy lake  that you&#039;ve pitched a couple of times, Yves.)  Anyway, if this is the best argument that Shiller can come up with, then I guess that eventually some congressman will decide to let the market work it out.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;I know a few middle Americans.  Red staters.  Former fans of Bush (and most of them are pretty embarrassed about it).  Solid, hardworking folks who live responsibly.  These are known as &quot;voters.&quot;  Guess how they feel about homeowner bailouts? &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Those who lived responsibly will pay for the irresponsible, of course.  In real life, the ant can&#039;t tell the grasshopper to get stuffed when grasshopper is starving.  But the tax on the responsible must be as small as possible, otherwise, we will all figure out that responsibility doesn&#039;t pay.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You know, Yves, it takes me as much time to read 26 comment on this site as it takes me to read 5 times that number on others&#8217;.  You&#8217;ve created a wonderful thing here, and I hope the riffraff and flamebaiters continue to stay off.</p>
<p>S said, <i />Shiller sounds like a moron.</p>
<p>He&#8217;s not.  That&#8217;s part of what&#8217;s so disappointing about his op-ed.  The good news is that if we&#8217;re keeping people in their homes in order to prevent stress (and where does that end&#8230; do I have to buy them a jet ski too?  Maybe that fancy lake  that you&#8217;ve pitched a couple of times, Yves.)  Anyway, if this is the best argument that Shiller can come up with, then I guess that eventually some congressman will decide to let the market work it out.</p>
<p>I know a few middle Americans.  Red staters.  Former fans of Bush (and most of them are pretty embarrassed about it).  Solid, hardworking folks who live responsibly.  These are known as &#8220;voters.&#8221;  Guess how they feel about homeowner bailouts? </p>
<p>Those who lived responsibly will pay for the irresponsible, of course.  In real life, the ant can&#8217;t tell the grasshopper to get stuffed when grasshopper is starving.  But the tax on the responsible must be as small as possible, otherwise, we will all figure out that responsibility doesn&#8217;t pay.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/05/bail-out-housing-to-salve-damaged.html#comment-8249</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 May 2008 12:34:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/05/bail-out-housing-to-salve-damaged-psyches/#comment-8249</guid>
		<description>There&#039;s little if anything &quot;fair&quot; about what&#039;s happened in the housing market, least of all any govt bailout of the industry.  Very little of the bailout bills will really help consumers, and keeping prices artificially high is the wrong thing to do.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;The industry created the bubble and ignored warnings that it would pop and cause economic damage.  Why would corporate CEO&#039;s, etc, care if it popped, as long as they got their millions before it did?  Attempts to prop up housing are nothing more than attempts to start the music again in a game of musical chairs.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;The govt looked the other way even as mortgage fraud was going on.  When banks and investors started losing money, suddenly the govt was interested.  Instead of bailing out anyone in the industry, congress should instead be investigating which of the players committed fraud or at the very least dug their own hole.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;As for buyers or psychology:  who among us would believe the govt can figure out in an efficient way to sort out victims of fraud from all the rest?  The rest do not deserve a bailout.  The victims have been falling for years, and like I said no attention was paid until it was banks and investors complaining.  &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Enforcement of laws would help.  Stricter laws would help only if enforced.  Getting rid of lobbying by these industries would help enormously.  But some feel-good bailout of anyone is not going to help.  It&#039;s a waste of tax payers money and there wouldn&#039;t even be a &#039;bailout&#039; in congress if not for the industry lobbying for it, packaging it as being for consumers, while all the time it&#039;s for the industry.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There&#8217;s little if anything &#8220;fair&#8221; about what&#8217;s happened in the housing market, least of all any govt bailout of the industry.  Very little of the bailout bills will really help consumers, and keeping prices artificially high is the wrong thing to do.</p>
<p>The industry created the bubble and ignored warnings that it would pop and cause economic damage.  Why would corporate CEO&#8217;s, etc, care if it popped, as long as they got their millions before it did?  Attempts to prop up housing are nothing more than attempts to start the music again in a game of musical chairs.</p>
<p>The govt looked the other way even as mortgage fraud was going on.  When banks and investors started losing money, suddenly the govt was interested.  Instead of bailing out anyone in the industry, congress should instead be investigating which of the players committed fraud or at the very least dug their own hole.</p>
<p>As for buyers or psychology:  who among us would believe the govt can figure out in an efficient way to sort out victims of fraud from all the rest?  The rest do not deserve a bailout.  The victims have been falling for years, and like I said no attention was paid until it was banks and investors complaining.  </p>
<p>Enforcement of laws would help.  Stricter laws would help only if enforced.  Getting rid of lobbying by these industries would help enormously.  But some feel-good bailout of anyone is not going to help.  It&#8217;s a waste of tax payers money and there wouldn&#8217;t even be a &#8216;bailout&#8217; in congress if not for the industry lobbying for it, packaging it as being for consumers, while all the time it&#8217;s for the industry.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/05/bail-out-housing-to-salve-damaged.html#comment-8238</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 May 2008 07:34:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/05/bail-out-housing-to-salve-damaged-psyches/#comment-8238</guid>
		<description>Depending on the state, renters get 30 days or 45 notice before they are out on the street if the landlord wants them to move out... even IF the renter is paying their rent on time.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Mortgage debtors on the other hand get about 1 year to keep staying in the bank&#039;s house... even AFTER the mortgage debtor stops paying their mortgage entirely.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Is this fair?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Depending on the state, renters get 30 days or 45 notice before they are out on the street if the landlord wants them to move out&#8230; even IF the renter is paying their rent on time.</p>
<p>Mortgage debtors on the other hand get about 1 year to keep staying in the bank&#8217;s house&#8230; even AFTER the mortgage debtor stops paying their mortgage entirely.</p>
<p>Is this fair?</p>
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		<title>By: a</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/05/bail-out-housing-to-salve-damaged.html#comment-8237</link>
		<dc:creator>a</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 May 2008 07:32:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/05/bail-out-housing-to-salve-damaged-psyches/#comment-8237</guid>
		<description>&quot;There will be adverse selection on what is put into this program.&quot;&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;I think this is the most important point.  Lenders will put into the program only mortgages which they think they will lose more by holding than by getting rid of them.  I presume the 5 billion CBO projection takes this into account, but that just seems too low a figure, so I&#039;m suspicious.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;There will be adverse selection on what is put into this program.&#8221;</p>
<p>I think this is the most important point.  Lenders will put into the program only mortgages which they think they will lose more by holding than by getting rid of them.  I presume the 5 billion CBO projection takes this into account, but that just seems too low a figure, so I&#8217;m suspicious.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/05/bail-out-housing-to-salve-damaged.html#comment-8233</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 May 2008 06:22:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/05/bail-out-housing-to-salve-damaged-psyches/#comment-8233</guid>
		<description>Shiller&#039;s article is infuriating.  I am 40 yrs. old, with a solid income.  I&#039;ve lived in California for the past 8 years and watched the whole bubble pschology unfold in front of my eyes, while I&#039;ve had to stay out of the market for a house for the past 8 years.  This is simple.  The people in my town being foreclosed on will not be homeless, just because they can&#039;t pay for a $400K house.  The idea that these people will be homeless is a joke.  People took on way too much debt because they believed that housing would go up in price forever (this IS California afterall and EVERYONE wants to live here, right?)  They never had any expectation of having to pay off the balance of the loans because they thought that the appreciation would pay it for them.  Simple as that.  They were NOT duped.  They DID understand that their incomes would not amortize their loans.  They threw the dice.  I did not.  Why should the government make life any easier for them or for any gambler who throws the dice in Vegas and loses.  They won&#039;t be suffering to any degree described by Shiller.  Again, just because you can&#039;t pay off a $400K house, does not make you destitute, or humiliated, or any other weak psyche problem.  It makes you a gambler who lost.  Big deal.  Now get the hell out!  There are people like me out here who actually can pay off a house, but who are unwilling to take huge gambles on speculative pricing.  When the speculative froth is blown away, and the price/earnings/income begin to control pricing again, then I&#039;ll gladly live in one of these houses that someone was kicked out of.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Shiller&#8217;s article is infuriating.  I am 40 yrs. old, with a solid income.  I&#8217;ve lived in California for the past 8 years and watched the whole bubble pschology unfold in front of my eyes, while I&#8217;ve had to stay out of the market for a house for the past 8 years.  This is simple.  The people in my town being foreclosed on will not be homeless, just because they can&#8217;t pay for a $400K house.  The idea that these people will be homeless is a joke.  People took on way too much debt because they believed that housing would go up in price forever (this IS California afterall and EVERYONE wants to live here, right?)  They never had any expectation of having to pay off the balance of the loans because they thought that the appreciation would pay it for them.  Simple as that.  They were NOT duped.  They DID understand that their incomes would not amortize their loans.  They threw the dice.  I did not.  Why should the government make life any easier for them or for any gambler who throws the dice in Vegas and loses.  They won&#8217;t be suffering to any degree described by Shiller.  Again, just because you can&#8217;t pay off a $400K house, does not make you destitute, or humiliated, or any other weak psyche problem.  It makes you a gambler who lost.  Big deal.  Now get the hell out!  There are people like me out here who actually can pay off a house, but who are unwilling to take huge gambles on speculative pricing.  When the speculative froth is blown away, and the price/earnings/income begin to control pricing again, then I&#8217;ll gladly live in one of these houses that someone was kicked out of.</p>
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		<title>By: Yves Smith</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/05/bail-out-housing-to-salve-damaged.html#comment-8232</link>
		<dc:creator>Yves Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 May 2008 05:19:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/05/bail-out-housing-to-salve-damaged-psyches/#comment-8232</guid>
		<description>If you read the post, it put the comment about the mortgage plan next to the discussion of loans made under various Fed facilities to date. No one expects them to go to zero either. But the government is merrily making financial commitments as if they cost nothing. The fate of the monolines shows the danger of that approach.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;The reality is I expect there will prove to be almost no bargaining space between the lenders and the FHA. The lenders have been very resistant to taking writedowns, particularly since any losses recognized would indicate they ought to take similar writedowns on other mortgages they hold. They will almost certainly submit mortgages only with the intent of taking the minumun haircut permited (15% or as close to that level as possible).&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;So yes, there will be perilously few losses because very few loans will be made.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you read the post, it put the comment about the mortgage plan next to the discussion of loans made under various Fed facilities to date. No one expects them to go to zero either. But the government is merrily making financial commitments as if they cost nothing. The fate of the monolines shows the danger of that approach.</p>
<p>The reality is I expect there will prove to be almost no bargaining space between the lenders and the FHA. The lenders have been very resistant to taking writedowns, particularly since any losses recognized would indicate they ought to take similar writedowns on other mortgages they hold. They will almost certainly submit mortgages only with the intent of taking the minumun haircut permited (15% or as close to that level as possible).</p>
<p>So yes, there will be perilously few losses because very few loans will be made.</p>
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		<title>By: Alan</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/05/bail-out-housing-to-salve-damaged.html#comment-8230</link>
		<dc:creator>Alan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 May 2008 04:35:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/05/bail-out-housing-to-salve-damaged-psyches/#comment-8230</guid>
		<description>$300 billion is a when pigs fly number.  It is the gross value of mortgages.  The write-downs will be at least 20%, and likely more.  This is the haircut from the lender.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;The FHA will be required to examine homeowners, only those residing in the home who are able to service a fixed-rate mortgage will be eligible.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;To say that $300 billion is a possible loss is equivalent to saying that the current paper value of all real estate is potentially at risk.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;The CBO is not wildly optimistic.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>$300 billion is a when pigs fly number.  It is the gross value of mortgages.  The write-downs will be at least 20%, and likely more.  This is the haircut from the lender.</p>
<p>The FHA will be required to examine homeowners, only those residing in the home who are able to service a fixed-rate mortgage will be eligible.</p>
<p>To say that $300 billion is a possible loss is equivalent to saying that the current paper value of all real estate is potentially at risk.</p>
<p>The CBO is not wildly optimistic.</p>
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		<title>By: Mikkel</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/05/bail-out-housing-to-salve-damaged.html#comment-8228</link>
		<dc:creator>Mikkel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 May 2008 04:04:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/05/bail-out-housing-to-salve-damaged-psyches/#comment-8228</guid>
		<description>Am I the only one that feels the current situation is very weird?&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Nearly every economist I&#039;ve read that correctly identifies the root causes of our current problems has been proposing crazy plans that perpetuate those problems, and nearly every other economist has their eyes closed and insists there are no problems.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Meanwhile, Joe Blow on the street has a great grasp of the current situation. A significant majority is even concerned about the strength of the dollar even though all the economists tell us that it doesn&#039;t matter.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Am I the only one that feels the current situation is very weird?</p>
<p>Nearly every economist I&#8217;ve read that correctly identifies the root causes of our current problems has been proposing crazy plans that perpetuate those problems, and nearly every other economist has their eyes closed and insists there are no problems.</p>
<p>Meanwhile, Joe Blow on the street has a great grasp of the current situation. A significant majority is even concerned about the strength of the dollar even though all the economists tell us that it doesn&#8217;t matter.</p>
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		<title>By: ruetheday</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/05/bail-out-housing-to-salve-damaged.html#comment-8225</link>
		<dc:creator>ruetheday</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 May 2008 02:54:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/05/bail-out-housing-to-salve-damaged-psyches/#comment-8225</guid>
		<description>All of these bailout proposals seem to assume that switching from and ARM to a 30 yr fixed, and perhaps reducing the principal by up to 15% will make the problem go away.  It won&#039;t.  I saw a report a few weeks ago that said the majority of subprime borrowers were getting into difficulty NOT when their mortgages (typically 2/28 or 3/27 ARMs) hit a normal periodic rate adjustment, but rather when their mortgages reset from the initial non-indexed non-amortized teaser rate to the fully-indexed fully amortized rate.  And this doesn&#039;t even take into account all of the IO, negative amortization, and option-ARM mortgages out there.  Many of these mortgages were predicated on 1) steadily rising home prices and 2) the ability to refi into new gimmick mortgages with below market non-fully-amortized rates at will, and their holders simply cannot afford a payment based on a full amortization at market rates.  As the recession deepens and income/employment drops, the situation only gets worse.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>All of these bailout proposals seem to assume that switching from and ARM to a 30 yr fixed, and perhaps reducing the principal by up to 15% will make the problem go away.  It won&#8217;t.  I saw a report a few weeks ago that said the majority of subprime borrowers were getting into difficulty NOT when their mortgages (typically 2/28 or 3/27 ARMs) hit a normal periodic rate adjustment, but rather when their mortgages reset from the initial non-indexed non-amortized teaser rate to the fully-indexed fully amortized rate.  And this doesn&#8217;t even take into account all of the IO, negative amortization, and option-ARM mortgages out there.  Many of these mortgages were predicated on 1) steadily rising home prices and 2) the ability to refi into new gimmick mortgages with below market non-fully-amortized rates at will, and their holders simply cannot afford a payment based on a full amortization at market rates.  As the recession deepens and income/employment drops, the situation only gets worse.</p>
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		<title>By: retread</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/05/bail-out-housing-to-salve-damaged.html#comment-8221</link>
		<dc:creator>retread</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 May 2008 01:12:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/05/bail-out-housing-to-salve-damaged-psyches/#comment-8221</guid>
		<description>Alan,&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;I think you are incorrect in saying $300 billion is total of the interest + principal guarantees. For instance, a CNN article said that &quot;The legislation would set aside $300 billion for the FHA to refinance loans.&quot; Thus the exposure to losses on principal is $300 billion; you could have everyone default in 6 months or even 60 months and then you&#039;d take your lumps on foreclosure costs and other losses on principal.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;http://money.cnn.com/2008/05/12/news/economy/rescue_plan_details/?postversion=2008051213&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;If you are going to criticize someone for not having facts right or sloppy writing, you&#039;d better be accurate yourself.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Alan,</p>
<p>I think you are incorrect in saying $300 billion is total of the interest + principal guarantees. For instance, a CNN article said that &#8220;The legislation would set aside $300 billion for the FHA to refinance loans.&#8221; Thus the exposure to losses on principal is $300 billion; you could have everyone default in 6 months or even 60 months and then you&#8217;d take your lumps on foreclosure costs and other losses on principal.</p>
<p><a href="http://money.cnn.com/2008/05/12/news/economy/rescue_plan_details/?postversion=2008051213" rel="nofollow">http://money.cnn.com/2008/05/12/news/economy/rescue_plan_details/?postversion=2008051213</a></p>
<p>If you are going to criticize someone for not having facts right or sloppy writing, you&#8217;d better be accurate yourself.</p>
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