<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: More Theories on Oil Prices and (Declining) Prospects</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/05/more-theories-on-oil-prices-and.html/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/05/more-theories-on-oil-prices-and.html</link>
	<description></description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 23 Nov 2009 03:10:07 -0500</lastBuildDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4</generator>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
		<item>
		<title>By: mxq</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/05/more-theories-on-oil-prices-and.html#comment-8733</link>
		<dc:creator>mxq</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 May 2008 15:55:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/05/more-theories-on-oil-prices-and-declining-prospects/#comment-8733</guid>
		<description>&lt;a HREF=&quot;http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/080529/oil_prices.html&quot; REL=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;AP&lt;/a&gt; - &quot;Oil prices fluctuated Thursday after the Energy Department reported sharp and unexpected declines in crude oil and gasoline supplies last week, &lt;b&gt;but said the drop in crude inventories was due to temporary delays in unloading oil tankers along the Gulf Coast.&lt;/b&gt;&quot;&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;I love it...&quot;temporary delays&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a HREF="http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/080529/oil_prices.html" REL="nofollow">AP</a> &#8211; &#8220;Oil prices fluctuated Thursday after the Energy Department reported sharp and unexpected declines in crude oil and gasoline supplies last week, <b>but said the drop in crude inventories was due to temporary delays in unloading oil tankers along the Gulf Coast.</b>&#8220;</p>
<p>I love it&#8230;&#8221;temporary delays&#8221;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Richard Kline</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/05/more-theories-on-oil-prices-and.html#comment-8725</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Kline</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 May 2008 12:01:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/05/more-theories-on-oil-prices-and-declining-prospects/#comment-8725</guid>
		<description>So Juan, I have been dimly aware of formula pricing in oil, but had not given the issue substantive thought until attempting, like others now, to unravel the &quot;Is it a bubble?&quot; conundrum.  Your follow on comment above explained the context far better than I, for which thanks.  Yves&#039; points in the earlier post on &#039;black speculation&#039; OTC, which I hadn&#039;t yet read whit I put up the above comment, highlight the small source/large price leverage issue dissect the chokepoint multiplier effects far more comprehensively also.  &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;I&#039;ve felt that the inventory build/non-build argument for present oil price trajectories missed the real &#039;black spec&#039; drivers for the price spike, so I&#039;m glad to have this all gone over here in detail---and now we&#039;re even getting probable inventory builds!  Mamma mia, this a-ones gonna end in tears.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So Juan, I have been dimly aware of formula pricing in oil, but had not given the issue substantive thought until attempting, like others now, to unravel the &#8220;Is it a bubble?&#8221; conundrum.  Your follow on comment above explained the context far better than I, for which thanks.  Yves&#8217; points in the earlier post on &#8216;black speculation&#8217; OTC, which I hadn&#8217;t yet read whit I put up the above comment, highlight the small source/large price leverage issue dissect the chokepoint multiplier effects far more comprehensively also.  </p>
<p>I&#8217;ve felt that the inventory build/non-build argument for present oil price trajectories missed the real &#8216;black spec&#8217; drivers for the price spike, so I&#8217;m glad to have this all gone over here in detail&#8212;and now we&#8217;re even getting probable inventory builds!  Mamma mia, this a-ones gonna end in tears.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/05/more-theories-on-oil-prices-and.html#comment-8715</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 May 2008 04:49:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/05/more-theories-on-oil-prices-and-declining-prospects/#comment-8715</guid>
		<description>Yergin says, &quot;And the third factor is what is happening to costs. The public focuses on the price at the pump, but the oil industry is preoccupied, and indeed somewhat stymied, by how rapidly their own costs are rising – far exceeding the rate of general inflation.&quot; And, &quot;Everything is in short supply – people, equipment, engineering skills...... This competition for people and equipment has driven up costs dramatically....&quot;&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;But oil companies are still making record profits.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yergin says, &#8220;And the third factor is what is happening to costs. The public focuses on the price at the pump, but the oil industry is preoccupied, and indeed somewhat stymied, by how rapidly their own costs are rising – far exceeding the rate of general inflation.&#8221; And, &#8220;Everything is in short supply – people, equipment, engineering skills&#8230;&#8230; This competition for people and equipment has driven up costs dramatically&#8230;.&#8221;</p>
<p>But oil companies are still making record profits.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Yves Smith</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/05/more-theories-on-oil-prices-and.html#comment-8713</link>
		<dc:creator>Yves Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 May 2008 04:38:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/05/more-theories-on-oil-prices-and-declining-prospects/#comment-8713</guid>
		<description>binaryoptions,&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;I discussed the imbalance between physical and contract volumes on the ICE (with NYMEX, one of the key exchanges for oil price determination) in&lt;a HREF=&quot;http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/05/soros-skyrocketing-oil-prices-bubble.html&quot; REL=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt; this post&lt;/a&gt;. &lt;a HREF=&quot;http://interfluidity.powerblogs.com/posts/1211940323.shtml&quot; REL=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Opinion is divided&lt;/a&gt; on what this means.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>binaryoptions,</p>
<p>I discussed the imbalance between physical and contract volumes on the ICE (with NYMEX, one of the key exchanges for oil price determination) in<a HREF="http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/05/soros-skyrocketing-oil-prices-bubble.html" REL="nofollow"> this post</a>. <a HREF="http://interfluidity.powerblogs.com/posts/1211940323.shtml" REL="nofollow">Opinion is divided</a> on what this means.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: binaryoptions</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/05/more-theories-on-oil-prices-and.html#comment-8711</link>
		<dc:creator>binaryoptions</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 May 2008 04:26:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/05/more-theories-on-oil-prices-and-declining-prospects/#comment-8711</guid>
		<description>When John Dizard of the Financial Times quotes Eugen Weinberg -- commodities specialist with Commerzbank --about the &quot;[belief in]...problems with the way parts of the [oil] commodities markets work&quot;. He describes the WTI contract based upon a 300k-400k BPD delivery. Then he quotes him as saying: &quot;The trading volume on which that is based is between 500m and 600m barrels per day&quot;. So, total oil futures trading volume for WFI delivery are trading in quantities exceeding the physical delivery capacity in Cushing? Wouldn&#039;t this spike up the spot price automatically? If so, then arbs are buying spot right now, storing it, anytime this structrual phenomena occurs. If so, then are the the contracts outstanding (known to not be insufficent in quantity delivery)are theese contracts then settled in cash? And why are companies buying oil futures based upon this blatant undercapity? (unless they are buying near term and recognizing far term contracts as being overvalued) I&#039;m sorry I&#039;m confused over this and hope someone here can clarify the implications this problem identified by Weinberg. I read something similar recently that corn futures, too, have exceeded the physical spot delivery quanitities.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When John Dizard of the Financial Times quotes Eugen Weinberg &#8212; commodities specialist with Commerzbank &#8211;about the &#8220;[belief in]&#8230;problems with the way parts of the [oil] commodities markets work&#8221;. He describes the WTI contract based upon a 300k-400k BPD delivery. Then he quotes him as saying: &#8220;The trading volume on which that is based is between 500m and 600m barrels per day&#8221;. So, total oil futures trading volume for WFI delivery are trading in quantities exceeding the physical delivery capacity in Cushing? Wouldn&#8217;t this spike up the spot price automatically? If so, then arbs are buying spot right now, storing it, anytime this structrual phenomena occurs. If so, then are the the contracts outstanding (known to not be insufficent in quantity delivery)are theese contracts then settled in cash? And why are companies buying oil futures based upon this blatant undercapity? (unless they are buying near term and recognizing far term contracts as being overvalued) I&#8217;m sorry I&#8217;m confused over this and hope someone here can clarify the implications this problem identified by Weinberg. I read something similar recently that corn futures, too, have exceeded the physical spot delivery quanitities.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Juan</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/05/more-theories-on-oil-prices-and.html#comment-8693</link>
		<dc:creator>Juan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 May 2008 22:38:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/05/more-theories-on-oil-prices-and-declining-prospects/#comment-8693</guid>
		<description>Richard,&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Pardon if you already know this but the modern oil price regime is one of formula pricing. The various  oils are priced +/- in reference to a few benchmark crudes such as WTI and Brent, while discovery of benchmark prices takes place within what are financial markets.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Physical production of benchmarks has been in long decline, (i.e. the physical markets for these have become progressively thinner), which evidently has had the effect of making price formation increasingly dependent on the non-physical.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Not to say this just began but has been a multi-decade process that rose from OPEC&#039;s mid-1980s loss of ability to manage price(s), an ability that itself had developed out of earlier contradictions between OPEC members and the major integrated oilcos, and these latters&#039; loss of control.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;As you say, aggregate [global] supply and demand are not determinant.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;A twist to the above would be inclusion of transfer pricing and cross-subsidizing between upstream and refiners within the same vertically integrated organizations.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;In the real world, the light sweet v. heavy sour question is not simply availability of the former but refiners ability to throughput the latter grades, and the spreads. To a point, &#039;standard&#039; refineries can be upgraded to handle the latter and, purely recollection, both India and China have been building heavy sour dedicated refineries.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Richard,</p>
<p>Pardon if you already know this but the modern oil price regime is one of formula pricing. The various  oils are priced +/- in reference to a few benchmark crudes such as WTI and Brent, while discovery of benchmark prices takes place within what are financial markets.</p>
<p>Physical production of benchmarks has been in long decline, (i.e. the physical markets for these have become progressively thinner), which evidently has had the effect of making price formation increasingly dependent on the non-physical.</p>
<p>Not to say this just began but has been a multi-decade process that rose from OPEC&#8217;s mid-1980s loss of ability to manage price(s), an ability that itself had developed out of earlier contradictions between OPEC members and the major integrated oilcos, and these latters&#8217; loss of control.</p>
<p>As you say, aggregate [global] supply and demand are not determinant.</p>
<p>A twist to the above would be inclusion of transfer pricing and cross-subsidizing between upstream and refiners within the same vertically integrated organizations.</p>
<p>In the real world, the light sweet v. heavy sour question is not simply availability of the former but refiners ability to throughput the latter grades, and the spreads. To a point, &#8217;standard&#8217; refineries can be upgraded to handle the latter and, purely recollection, both India and China have been building heavy sour dedicated refineries.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: VoiceFromTheWilderness</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/05/more-theories-on-oil-prices-and.html#comment-8683</link>
		<dc:creator>VoiceFromTheWilderness</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 May 2008 20:10:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/05/more-theories-on-oil-prices-and-declining-prospects/#comment-8683</guid>
		<description>As someone who in not an economist, but who has to make investment decisions based in part on understanding what is going with oil, I have been devoting some effort to this issue.  Particularly after Krugmann&#039;s essay claiming supply and demand is the only possible explanation, I tried hard to understand if he was right because my bias is to think he isn&#039;t.  &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Since I don&#039;t have the theoretical expertise, after a while, due to my science training perhaps, it occured to me to use the data.  smart huh?&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;So... if the price of oil is purely reflective of supply and demand, then it necessarily follows that when the price of oil dropped precipitously immediately prior to the 2006 election, a drop that was a bigger delta than across the entire 2001 recession period, (in a matter of weeks, not years), it follows that this must have been entirely due to supply and demand.  uh, no.  No way, sorry not buying it.  The idea that supply in 2001 was tighter than in 2006, or that demand in 2006 with the economy booming, was less than than demand at the bottom of a recession, and that moreove this change happened in a couple of weeks, instead of a couple of years is... absurd.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;It is in fact, beyond absurd, it is manipulative to even propose it.  That price drop in 2006 clearly demonstrated that oil prices are affected by things other than supply and demand.  You may choose to believe that it was a nefarious manipulation of price or that it was a surprise consequence of Goldman Sachs for some reason choosing to make a change, but you cannot argue that supply and demand together swung by that amount in that short of a period of time with little or no macro cause, or consequence interestingly enough.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;The whole thing is absurd, and for any economist to devote more than one word of theorizing about why it isn&#039;t a consequence of the financial market structure, is for them to be engaged in foolish sophistry, at best or outright duplicity at worst</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As someone who in not an economist, but who has to make investment decisions based in part on understanding what is going with oil, I have been devoting some effort to this issue.  Particularly after Krugmann&#8217;s essay claiming supply and demand is the only possible explanation, I tried hard to understand if he was right because my bias is to think he isn&#8217;t.  </p>
<p>Since I don&#8217;t have the theoretical expertise, after a while, due to my science training perhaps, it occured to me to use the data.  smart huh?</p>
<p>So&#8230; if the price of oil is purely reflective of supply and demand, then it necessarily follows that when the price of oil dropped precipitously immediately prior to the 2006 election, a drop that was a bigger delta than across the entire 2001 recession period, (in a matter of weeks, not years), it follows that this must have been entirely due to supply and demand.  uh, no.  No way, sorry not buying it.  The idea that supply in 2001 was tighter than in 2006, or that demand in 2006 with the economy booming, was less than than demand at the bottom of a recession, and that moreove this change happened in a couple of weeks, instead of a couple of years is&#8230; absurd.</p>
<p>It is in fact, beyond absurd, it is manipulative to even propose it.  That price drop in 2006 clearly demonstrated that oil prices are affected by things other than supply and demand.  You may choose to believe that it was a nefarious manipulation of price or that it was a surprise consequence of Goldman Sachs for some reason choosing to make a change, but you cannot argue that supply and demand together swung by that amount in that short of a period of time with little or no macro cause, or consequence interestingly enough.</p>
<p>The whole thing is absurd, and for any economist to devote more than one word of theorizing about why it isn&#8217;t a consequence of the financial market structure, is for them to be engaged in foolish sophistry, at best or outright duplicity at worst</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: mxq</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/05/more-theories-on-oil-prices-and.html#comment-8681</link>
		<dc:creator>mxq</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 May 2008 19:26:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/05/more-theories-on-oil-prices-and-declining-prospects/#comment-8681</guid>
		<description>Anonymous...the heavy crude vs. the WTI is an interesting debate.  &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;But the fact that there is inventory of &quot;Iranian heavy crude that nobody wants to refine at the moment&quot; cannot be dismissed.  Why doesn&#039;t anyone want to refine it?  &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;My guess is the value of the products that refiners produce from the sour barrel would be insufficient to cover costs (&quot;crack spreads&quot;).  But then, how can that be?&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;I&#039;m guessing (again) that rbob and distillate markets are more regulated and therefore aren&#039;t participating in the shift of capital into this asset class.  &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;For instance, according to yesterday&#039;s Schork Report (its a pdf via a subsription...so unfortunately, i can&#039;t post a link...but they offer a free three week sub...worth a look imo) non-commercials held almost 10 long rbob contracts to each short, &quot;the longest position in the 25-year history of NYMEX gasoline trading.&quot; I have a feeling &quot;commercials&quot; in this market are indeed real commercials...whereas the crude mkt has those jumbled (big time) as Yves points out.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;If indeed that is true, my bet is crude gets regulated before rbob gets &quot;de-regulated&quot;...eventually facillitating the consumption of sour by refiners-- away from the benchmark WTI -- as cracks would recover.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anonymous&#8230;the heavy crude vs. the WTI is an interesting debate.  </p>
<p>But the fact that there is inventory of &#8220;Iranian heavy crude that nobody wants to refine at the moment&#8221; cannot be dismissed.  Why doesn&#8217;t anyone want to refine it?  </p>
<p>My guess is the value of the products that refiners produce from the sour barrel would be insufficient to cover costs (&#8221;crack spreads&#8221;).  But then, how can that be?</p>
<p>I&#8217;m guessing (again) that rbob and distillate markets are more regulated and therefore aren&#8217;t participating in the shift of capital into this asset class.  </p>
<p>For instance, according to yesterday&#8217;s Schork Report (its a pdf via a subsription&#8230;so unfortunately, i can&#8217;t post a link&#8230;but they offer a free three week sub&#8230;worth a look imo) non-commercials held almost 10 long rbob contracts to each short, &#8220;the longest position in the 25-year history of NYMEX gasoline trading.&#8221; I have a feeling &#8220;commercials&#8221; in this market are indeed real commercials&#8230;whereas the crude mkt has those jumbled (big time) as Yves points out.</p>
<p>If indeed that is true, my bet is crude gets regulated before rbob gets &#8220;de-regulated&#8221;&#8230;eventually facillitating the consumption of sour by refiners&#8211; away from the benchmark WTI &#8212; as cracks would recover.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/05/more-theories-on-oil-prices-and.html#comment-8680</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 May 2008 18:25:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/05/more-theories-on-oil-prices-and-declining-prospects/#comment-8680</guid>
		<description>The highlighted comment by the Commerzbank analyst is true insofar as the rest world &lt;i&gt;could&lt;/i&gt; get by without Saudi Oil for a year IF it burned every last drop of its strategic reserves AND the declines in non-OPEC production magically stopped. I believe most OECD countries are committed to holding something like 57 days&#039; supply in reserve. I bet a few people doing a drive-by read of the FT piece read it as saying there&#039;s a year&#039;s worth of oil in storage.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;As for the tankers, I believe they are holding Iranian heavy crude that nobody wants to refine at the moment, not lashings of black gold racked up by heartless speculators. Heavy sour crude is all that Saudi Arabia has in its fabled spigot, so that won&#039;t come to the rescue of a world that only runs properly on copious amounts of cheap light crude. &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;As for deep sea oil, it may be economic now but in terms of its potential for staving off Peak Oil, it&#039;s like asking a weir on the upper Thames to fill in for the Hoover Dam. It&#039;s demand destruction, Jim, but not as we know it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The highlighted comment by the Commerzbank analyst is true insofar as the rest world <i>could</i> get by without Saudi Oil for a year IF it burned every last drop of its strategic reserves AND the declines in non-OPEC production magically stopped. I believe most OECD countries are committed to holding something like 57 days&#8217; supply in reserve. I bet a few people doing a drive-by read of the FT piece read it as saying there&#8217;s a year&#8217;s worth of oil in storage.</p>
<p>As for the tankers, I believe they are holding Iranian heavy crude that nobody wants to refine at the moment, not lashings of black gold racked up by heartless speculators. Heavy sour crude is all that Saudi Arabia has in its fabled spigot, so that won&#8217;t come to the rescue of a world that only runs properly on copious amounts of cheap light crude. </p>
<p>As for deep sea oil, it may be economic now but in terms of its potential for staving off Peak Oil, it&#8217;s like asking a weir on the upper Thames to fill in for the Hoover Dam. It&#8217;s demand destruction, Jim, but not as we know it.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Richard Kline</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/05/more-theories-on-oil-prices-and.html#comment-8656</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Kline</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 May 2008 13:29:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/05/more-theories-on-oil-prices-and-declining-prospects/#comment-8656</guid>
		<description>Verlegger&#039;s comments regarding light sweet crude as a price chokepoint highlight something much on my mind.  If there is a forward options collar bunching up prices, it needn&#039;t be on oil supplies as a whole.  Some varieties of oil, and some locations of storage as mentioned are much more constrained than the market as a whole, and at the same time have far more impact on prices as a whole.  There are chokepoints which allow disproportionate price impacts by speculation.  Pricing is nominally marginal but in fact aggregate supply and demand are not determinative.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Verlegger&#8217;s comments regarding light sweet crude as a price chokepoint highlight something much on my mind.  If there is a forward options collar bunching up prices, it needn&#8217;t be on oil supplies as a whole.  Some varieties of oil, and some locations of storage as mentioned are much more constrained than the market as a whole, and at the same time have far more impact on prices as a whole.  There are chokepoints which allow disproportionate price impacts by speculation.  Pricing is nominally marginal but in fact aggregate supply and demand are not determinative.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
