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	<title>Comments on: Wolf, Becker, and Posner on Oil (With a Shocker From Posner)</title>
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		<title>By: juan</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/05/wolf-becker-and-posner-on-oil-with.html#comment-8068</link>
		<dc:creator>juan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 May 2008 23:15:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/05/wolf-becker-and-posner-on-oil-with-a-shocker-from-posner/#comment-8068</guid>
		<description>A quick reading of the three authors and it seems apparent that, to slightly different degrees, they are not particularly aware of changes in oil price regimes but are moreless working backwards from high price to supply/demand considerations, i.e. &#039;since the price is so high, sufficient S/D imbalance &lt;i&gt;must&lt;/i&gt; exist, therefore...&#039;.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;In effect, they are demanding that reality conform to types of efficient market theory, no matter that the pricing of oils, first nationally then internationally, has had little to do with such theories but forms of price management for nearly a century and that the current price regime is centered in both on and off-exchange financial markets, so open to pressures that would not have applied during the days of the &quot;seven sisters&quot; or the relatively short period of OPEC price setting.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Certainly it can be argued that financial markets are, if only at the &#039;weak&#039; level, efficient but behavioral finance and the history of manias/bubbles with their inclusion of socio-psychological channels, seem much more applicable than strictly physical supply/demand arguments.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;From mid-1960s considerations of a &quot;social industrial complex&quot; through Forrester and Club of Rome into the modern environmental movement and late 1970s formation of the German Green Party to the rise of peak oil explanations on one hand and AGW on the other, the required social psychology has been under formation.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Equally, the post-1970 decline of &#039;Fordism&#039; as a viable regime of accumulation and attempts to discover/implement a replacement able to resurrect capitalism&#039;s 1950-70 &quot;golden age&quot;.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Consciously and not, what we have been seeing for some time now has been an integrating of the preceeding two paragraphs, an integrating standing with and generating hopes for a &#039;green&#039; solution and/or bubble able to overcome the insufficiencies of its contents.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Very high priced oils/distillates improve the likelyhood of a new regime of accumulation but, to the extent these prices diminish global performance, also detract from such possibility other than, perhaps, on the terrain of finance and its struggle to save itself.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A quick reading of the three authors and it seems apparent that, to slightly different degrees, they are not particularly aware of changes in oil price regimes but are moreless working backwards from high price to supply/demand considerations, i.e. &#8217;since the price is so high, sufficient S/D imbalance <i>must</i> exist, therefore&#8230;&#8217;.</p>
<p>In effect, they are demanding that reality conform to types of efficient market theory, no matter that the pricing of oils, first nationally then internationally, has had little to do with such theories but forms of price management for nearly a century and that the current price regime is centered in both on and off-exchange financial markets, so open to pressures that would not have applied during the days of the &#8220;seven sisters&#8221; or the relatively short period of OPEC price setting.</p>
<p>Certainly it can be argued that financial markets are, if only at the &#8216;weak&#8217; level, efficient but behavioral finance and the history of manias/bubbles with their inclusion of socio-psychological channels, seem much more applicable than strictly physical supply/demand arguments.</p>
<p>From mid-1960s considerations of a &#8220;social industrial complex&#8221; through Forrester and Club of Rome into the modern environmental movement and late 1970s formation of the German Green Party to the rise of peak oil explanations on one hand and AGW on the other, the required social psychology has been under formation.</p>
<p>Equally, the post-1970 decline of &#8216;Fordism&#8217; as a viable regime of accumulation and attempts to discover/implement a replacement able to resurrect capitalism&#8217;s 1950-70 &#8220;golden age&#8221;.</p>
<p>Consciously and not, what we have been seeing for some time now has been an integrating of the preceeding two paragraphs, an integrating standing with and generating hopes for a &#8216;green&#8217; solution and/or bubble able to overcome the insufficiencies of its contents.</p>
<p>Very high priced oils/distillates improve the likelyhood of a new regime of accumulation but, to the extent these prices diminish global performance, also detract from such possibility other than, perhaps, on the terrain of finance and its struggle to save itself.</p>
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		<title>By: john c. halasz</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/05/wolf-becker-and-posner-on-oil-with.html#comment-8067</link>
		<dc:creator>john c. halasz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 May 2008 21:43:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/05/wolf-becker-and-posner-on-oil-with-a-shocker-from-posner/#comment-8067</guid>
		<description>Arguably, at these high oil prices, a tax on barrels of oil, without discrimination as to foreign or domestic sourcing, since it&#039;s basically one global market, would end up as a tax on the rents of virtually all conventional oil producers. The logic is fairly straight forward. An additional $10 added to the price of oil in the U.S. would initially raise the price and reduce demand. Other countries. especially those that subsidize the oil price might take up some of the slack and bid up the price, but such subsidies are costly to them, and the size of the U.S. demand is so large that it&#039;s doubtful that the remaining global demand could take up the slack. SO the Saudis, the lowest cost/highest rent producer might decide to swallow $5 of the tax to maintain its market share and relative revenues. Russia, a higher cost producer, but still enjoying large rents, would be forced to slash its price accordingly to avoid losing relative market share, and so on through further price cuts down to the level of most of the tax. The large revenue windfall at the expense of oil producer rents could be used to cushion dislocations to the lower income strata of the population, but most of all could be used to finance development of alternative energy sources.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Arguably, at these high oil prices, a tax on barrels of oil, without discrimination as to foreign or domestic sourcing, since it&#8217;s basically one global market, would end up as a tax on the rents of virtually all conventional oil producers. The logic is fairly straight forward. An additional $10 added to the price of oil in the U.S. would initially raise the price and reduce demand. Other countries. especially those that subsidize the oil price might take up some of the slack and bid up the price, but such subsidies are costly to them, and the size of the U.S. demand is so large that it&#8217;s doubtful that the remaining global demand could take up the slack. SO the Saudis, the lowest cost/highest rent producer might decide to swallow $5 of the tax to maintain its market share and relative revenues. Russia, a higher cost producer, but still enjoying large rents, would be forced to slash its price accordingly to avoid losing relative market share, and so on through further price cuts down to the level of most of the tax. The large revenue windfall at the expense of oil producer rents could be used to cushion dislocations to the lower income strata of the population, but most of all could be used to finance development of alternative energy sources.</p>
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		<title>By: Independent Accountant</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/05/wolf-becker-and-posner-on-oil-with.html#comment-8062</link>
		<dc:creator>Independent Accountant</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 May 2008 18:42:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/05/wolf-becker-and-posner-on-oil-with-a-shocker-from-posner/#comment-8062</guid>
		<description>Anonymous:&lt;br/&gt;I too am a Chicagoan, MBA, 1974.  I remember Becker had been awarded the John Bates Clark Medal and I was awestruck with his intellect.  I don&#039;t say that often.  I agree, Becker-Posner is a fine blog.&lt;br/&gt;Posner is my favorite sitting judge and I believe the second best ever to sit on the bench after Oliver  Wendell Holmes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anonymous:<br />I too am a Chicagoan, MBA, 1974.  I remember Becker had been awarded the John Bates Clark Medal and I was awestruck with his intellect.  I don&#8217;t say that often.  I agree, Becker-Posner is a fine blog.<br />Posner is my favorite sitting judge and I believe the second best ever to sit on the bench after Oliver  Wendell Holmes.</p>
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		<title>By: chegewara</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/05/wolf-becker-and-posner-on-oil-with.html#comment-8061</link>
		<dc:creator>chegewara</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 May 2008 18:05:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/05/wolf-becker-and-posner-on-oil-with-a-shocker-from-posner/#comment-8061</guid>
		<description>&gt;&gt;I don&#039;t expect any change in policy in any of these subsidizing countries--China has the savings to be able to afford it, the Gulf has the oil earnings to be able to afford it, and U.S. politicians could never face the public outcry.&lt;&lt;&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;i disagree completely. at least one of the countries (India) is gradually falling out of equation, as there is only so much of oil bonds that indians can raise. chinese savings is a different story, but think about it in terms of having $1.5K per capita in a country without any wealthfare safety net. IMO China can only pay for all of the price fixing only as long as foreigners hype persists and they can get all the $ they want. Middle East is a disaster in the making. Public sector salaries and food handouts are up on a permanent basis. People don&#039;t remember that as recently as 2003 Saudi Arabia was on precipice of fiscal disaster. i am missing the point of the comment on US subsidies of ethanol as i don&#039;t think that has any global impact on &gt;&gt;oil&lt;&lt; prices.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;finally, think about it in common sense terms - if you are given oil at half the global price, you will max out your consumption (petrochem, smuggling, absence of fuel surcharges etc) and you will continue increasing it until there is smth in the pipe. subsidies NEVER work. ultimately they lead to physical shortages (of which you have in spades in both China and India) and development of black markets. and if you think price controls work in US, ask Nixon.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>>>I don&#8217;t expect any change in policy in any of these subsidizing countries&#8211;China has the savings to be able to afford it, the Gulf has the oil earnings to be able to afford it, and U.S. politicians could never face the public outcry.< <<br/><br />i disagree completely. at least one of the countries (India) is gradually falling out of equation, as there is only so much of oil bonds that indians can raise. chinese savings is a different story, but think about it in terms of having $1.5K per capita in a country without any wealthfare safety net. IMO China can only pay for all of the price fixing only as long as foreigners hype persists and they can get all the $ they want. Middle East is a disaster in the making. Public sector salaries and food handouts are up on a permanent basis. People don&#8217;t remember that as recently as 2003 Saudi Arabia was on precipice of fiscal disaster. i am missing the point of the comment on US subsidies of ethanol as i don&#8217;t think that has any global impact on >>oil< < prices.<br/><br />finally, think about it in common sense terms &#8211; if you are given oil at half the global price, you will max out your consumption (petrochem, smuggling, absence of fuel surcharges etc) and you will continue increasing it until there is smth in the pipe. subsidies NEVER work. ultimately they lead to physical shortages (of which you have in spades in both China and India) and development of black markets. and if you think price controls work in US, ask Nixon.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/05/wolf-becker-and-posner-on-oil-with.html#comment-8058</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 May 2008 17:44:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/05/wolf-becker-and-posner-on-oil-with-a-shocker-from-posner/#comment-8058</guid>
		<description>These arguments were being made in 1980, the end of oil was in sight then as it is now.  People will change their behavior when it is cost efficient/ necessary to do so. We don&#039;t live in a static economy.  There is and will be no shortage of oil at the right price.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>These arguments were being made in 1980, the end of oil was in sight then as it is now.  People will change their behavior when it is cost efficient/ necessary to do so. We don&#8217;t live in a static economy.  There is and will be no shortage of oil at the right price.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/05/wolf-becker-and-posner-on-oil-with.html#comment-8057</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 May 2008 17:30:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/05/wolf-becker-and-posner-on-oil-with-a-shocker-from-posner/#comment-8057</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m inclined to agree with Posner.  $200 oil is going to get us farther in research and development on new technologies than any government subsidy ever has.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;As for the Becker-Posner blog, its one of the best on the web.  The two are dueling geniuses... each reaching to outsmart the other.  &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;For the record, I&#039;m an alum of the University of Chicago Graduate School of Business and Law School (JD/MBA)... so I&#039;m biased.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m inclined to agree with Posner.  $200 oil is going to get us farther in research and development on new technologies than any government subsidy ever has.</p>
<p>As for the Becker-Posner blog, its one of the best on the web.  The two are dueling geniuses&#8230; each reaching to outsmart the other.  </p>
<p>For the record, I&#8217;m an alum of the University of Chicago Graduate School of Business and Law School (JD/MBA)&#8230; so I&#8217;m biased.</p>
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		<title>By: macndub</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/05/wolf-becker-and-posner-on-oil-with.html#comment-8056</link>
		<dc:creator>macndub</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 May 2008 17:19:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/05/wolf-becker-and-posner-on-oil-with-a-shocker-from-posner/#comment-8056</guid>
		<description>Moe at 12:16, there is considerable debate over the ability of the Saudis to pump more and their reservoir management.  People who I trust tell me that the Saudis are the best reservoir managers in the world, period, and extremely conservative to boot.  This argues for keeping oil in the ground as a form of investment.  I think the Saudis drill fewer than 100 wells a year, compared to well over 10,000 in Alberta alone.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Furthermore, higher royalties shares, especially via production sharing agreements, create the impression of declining reserves because of SEC reporting. (Exxon reports only the post-royalty share of oil, for example, which in high price environments creates the impression that reserve replacement is negative.  In fact, oil reserves that were physically added belong to the royalty owner&#039;s account, so the reported reserves reflect only Exxon&#039;s economic interest, not the amount of oil found).&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Bottom line: private companies will certainly pump more in high priced environments, but royalty owners (governments) have different incentives.  And when governments own some 70% of the world&#039;s oil, they&#039;re the deciders.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Moe at 12:16, there is considerable debate over the ability of the Saudis to pump more and their reservoir management.  People who I trust tell me that the Saudis are the best reservoir managers in the world, period, and extremely conservative to boot.  This argues for keeping oil in the ground as a form of investment.  I think the Saudis drill fewer than 100 wells a year, compared to well over 10,000 in Alberta alone.</p>
<p>Furthermore, higher royalties shares, especially via production sharing agreements, create the impression of declining reserves because of SEC reporting. (Exxon reports only the post-royalty share of oil, for example, which in high price environments creates the impression that reserve replacement is negative.  In fact, oil reserves that were physically added belong to the royalty owner&#8217;s account, so the reported reserves reflect only Exxon&#8217;s economic interest, not the amount of oil found).</p>
<p>Bottom line: private companies will certainly pump more in high priced environments, but royalty owners (governments) have different incentives.  And when governments own some 70% of the world&#8217;s oil, they&#8217;re the deciders.</p>
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		<title>By: Dan</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/05/wolf-becker-and-posner-on-oil-with.html#comment-8055</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 May 2008 17:12:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/05/wolf-becker-and-posner-on-oil-with-a-shocker-from-posner/#comment-8055</guid>
		<description>While we&#039;re in the process of placing higher taxes on oil to &quot;prevent the collapse our civilzation&quot; and &quot;to promote the develpolment of alternative fuels&quot; a la Friedman and Posner, let&#039;s also place a big, fat tax on AIDS, and maybe heart disease and cancer.  &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;It&#039;ll work like this:  If you&#039;re HIV positive,for example, then you need to start forking an AIDS tax so that a real cure can finally be established.  The disincentive, coupled with a windfall tax will finally put these insidious diseases to rest.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Then...and this is the best part!!....we can teach countries in Africa to do the same.  They can apply this simple disincentive-inventive taxation plan to end poverty, war and AIDS.  &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;&quot;Malaria got you down?  The government of The Congo hereby annouces the imposition of $1.00 tax on all mosquito bites.  An Inspector with a Skeeter Meter will be visiting each village weekly.  Anyone who claims that a bite is just acne or a rash prosecuted for tax evasion.&quot;. &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Then, with money in hand, watch the government work its magic!&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Do you really think a tax will help solve our energy woes?  If so, do you think it&#039;ll take $1.00 a gallon or $10.00?  Or $20?  &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Why would you trust our government (or any government) with a solution...to anything?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While we&#8217;re in the process of placing higher taxes on oil to &#8220;prevent the collapse our civilzation&#8221; and &#8220;to promote the develpolment of alternative fuels&#8221; a la Friedman and Posner, let&#8217;s also place a big, fat tax on AIDS, and maybe heart disease and cancer.  </p>
<p>It&#8217;ll work like this:  If you&#8217;re HIV positive,for example, then you need to start forking an AIDS tax so that a real cure can finally be established.  The disincentive, coupled with a windfall tax will finally put these insidious diseases to rest.</p>
<p>Then&#8230;and this is the best part!!&#8230;.we can teach countries in Africa to do the same.  They can apply this simple disincentive-inventive taxation plan to end poverty, war and AIDS.  </p>
<p>&#8220;Malaria got you down?  The government of The Congo hereby annouces the imposition of $1.00 tax on all mosquito bites.  An Inspector with a Skeeter Meter will be visiting each village weekly.  Anyone who claims that a bite is just acne or a rash prosecuted for tax evasion.&#8221;. </p>
<p>Then, with money in hand, watch the government work its magic!</p>
<p>Do you really think a tax will help solve our energy woes?  If so, do you think it&#8217;ll take $1.00 a gallon or $10.00?  Or $20?  </p>
<p>Why would you trust our government (or any government) with a solution&#8230;to anything?</p>
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		<title>By: Petey Wheatstraw</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/05/wolf-becker-and-posner-on-oil-with.html#comment-8054</link>
		<dc:creator>Petey Wheatstraw</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 May 2008 17:05:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/05/wolf-becker-and-posner-on-oil-with-a-shocker-from-posner/#comment-8054</guid>
		<description>badanov:&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Spoken like a true crack whore. There&#039;s nothing wrong here that more of the same wouldn&#039;t fix.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Sheesh.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>badanov:</p>
<p>Spoken like a true crack whore. There&#8217;s nothing wrong here that more of the same wouldn&#8217;t fix.</p>
<p>Sheesh.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/05/wolf-becker-and-posner-on-oil-with.html#comment-8052</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 May 2008 16:16:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/05/wolf-becker-and-posner-on-oil-with-a-shocker-from-posner/#comment-8052</guid>
		<description>This is Moe Gamble again--one more thing. Macndub is correct that &quot;oil intensity of GDP in the US is one-third what it was in 1980.&quot; But this also means the easy gains in energy efficiency have already been exploited.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;And a lot of the reason our GDP oil intensity is lower now is because so much of our economy has been riding on the back of China (with our energy use transferred to them, while we kept most of the profits) and a financial industry with very iffy prospects. &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;And I just don&#039;t see any evidence that large amounts of reserves are being deliberately held in the ground as a form of investment. ANWR and the U.S. continental shelf are being held in the ground--true. But there&#039;s no way that this is some kind of investment strategy to gain higher prices later. Since I&#039;m certain that Bush and Cheney understand the oil situation, we may be holding back those reserves to have some supply later, but that would be for dealing with a serious energy crunch, not for higher profits!&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Meanwhile, the rest of the world has been positively stupid about its extraction policies. Saudi Arabia, for example, has actually damaged some of its most important reservoirs in an attempt to maintain it&#039;s role of swing producer and image of endless supply. Within the biz, the dominant view until the past year or so has been that OPEC would be able to crank it up and high prices were temporary, so everyone has been pumping like crazy to cash in on the high prices.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is Moe Gamble again&#8211;one more thing. Macndub is correct that &#8220;oil intensity of GDP in the US is one-third what it was in 1980.&#8221; But this also means the easy gains in energy efficiency have already been exploited.</p>
<p>And a lot of the reason our GDP oil intensity is lower now is because so much of our economy has been riding on the back of China (with our energy use transferred to them, while we kept most of the profits) and a financial industry with very iffy prospects. </p>
<p>And I just don&#8217;t see any evidence that large amounts of reserves are being deliberately held in the ground as a form of investment. ANWR and the U.S. continental shelf are being held in the ground&#8211;true. But there&#8217;s no way that this is some kind of investment strategy to gain higher prices later. Since I&#8217;m certain that Bush and Cheney understand the oil situation, we may be holding back those reserves to have some supply later, but that would be for dealing with a serious energy crunch, not for higher profits!</p>
<p>Meanwhile, the rest of the world has been positively stupid about its extraction policies. Saudi Arabia, for example, has actually damaged some of its most important reservoirs in an attempt to maintain it&#8217;s role of swing producer and image of endless supply. Within the biz, the dominant view until the past year or so has been that OPEC would be able to crank it up and high prices were temporary, so everyone has been pumping like crazy to cash in on the high prices.</p>
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