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	<title>Comments on: Quick Summary of Soros Testimony on Oil</title>
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		<title>By: mxq</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/06/quick-summary-of-soros-testimony-on-oil.html#comment-9005</link>
		<dc:creator>mxq</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jun 2008 04:03:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Going through Mike Greenburger&#039;s testimony, i thought this was intersting (he is an ex-cftc director of trading): &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;&quot;NYMEX President Newsome has further opined that ―[t]he reports on the role of speculators on oil prices are grossly exaggerated. If you look at the data on who is actually trading, the level of commercial participants remains 70 to 72 percent. Of course, as Michael Masters recently explained, Dr. Newsome‘s calculation treats investment banks and hedge funds laying off the risk of their off exchange swaps transactions on NYMEX as the same as a heating oil dealer using the WTI contract on NYMEX to hedge his business risk. If those banks and hedge funds were properly classified as speculators, about 70 percent of the trading on NYMEX would be speculative – not commercial. And, if you were to add all of the WTI trading on NYMEX, ICE, and the Dubai exchange, &lt;b&gt;&lt;i&gt;speculation might very well approach 80-90 per cent of the WTI trades executed by U.S. owned exchanges&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/i&gt;. By any objective assessment, the crude oil market is now overwhelmingly dominated by speculation, most of which is not subject to the age old controls imposed upon speculators in these markets.&quot; (emphasis added)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Going through Mike Greenburger&#8217;s testimony, i thought this was intersting (he is an ex-cftc director of trading): </p>
<p>&#8220;NYMEX President Newsome has further opined that ―[t]he reports on the role of speculators on oil prices are grossly exaggerated. If you look at the data on who is actually trading, the level of commercial participants remains 70 to 72 percent. Of course, as Michael Masters recently explained, Dr. Newsome‘s calculation treats investment banks and hedge funds laying off the risk of their off exchange swaps transactions on NYMEX as the same as a heating oil dealer using the WTI contract on NYMEX to hedge his business risk. If those banks and hedge funds were properly classified as speculators, about 70 percent of the trading on NYMEX would be speculative – not commercial. And, if you were to add all of the WTI trading on NYMEX, ICE, and the Dubai exchange, <b><i>speculation might very well approach 80-90 per cent of the WTI trades executed by U.S. owned exchanges</i></b>. By any objective assessment, the crude oil market is now overwhelmingly dominated by speculation, most of which is not subject to the age old controls imposed upon speculators in these markets.&#8221; (emphasis added)</p>
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		<title>By: ciccocicco</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/06/quick-summary-of-soros-testimony-on-oil.html#comment-8998</link>
		<dc:creator>ciccocicco</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jun 2008 01:31:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/06/quick-summary-of-soros-testimony-on-oil/#comment-8998</guid>
		<description>Then, if only the governments had acted with a more strategic long term view imposing very high taxes on gas, we would have had the same results without the money outlow.  But that is dreaming .....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Then, if only the governments had acted with a more strategic long term view imposing very high taxes on gas, we would have had the same results without the money outlow.  But that is dreaming &#8230;..</p>
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		<title>By: ciccocicco</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/06/quick-summary-of-soros-testimony-on-oil.html#comment-8996</link>
		<dc:creator>ciccocicco</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jun 2008 00:58:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>It is not completely true that &quot;speculators&quot; increase volatility.  By quickly raising the prices they are causing the world to react: invest more in oil esploration, venture capital for green technology,   government guidelines on fuel consumption, Electric Vehicles etc.  A &quot;parabolic&quot; volatility is much better than the Hockey Stick volatility we would have not acting and realising one day out of the blu that oil supply is no more enough.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is not completely true that &#8220;speculators&#8221; increase volatility.  By quickly raising the prices they are causing the world to react: invest more in oil esploration, venture capital for green technology,   government guidelines on fuel consumption, Electric Vehicles etc.  A &#8220;parabolic&#8221; volatility is much better than the Hockey Stick volatility we would have not acting and realising one day out of the blu that oil supply is no more enough.</p>
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		<title>By: Airelon</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/06/quick-summary-of-soros-testimony-on-oil.html#comment-8979</link>
		<dc:creator>Airelon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Jun 2008 13:24:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/06/quick-summary-of-soros-testimony-on-oil/#comment-8979</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m sorry, but I see the words: &quot;prohibit&quot; and &quot;Commodities speculation&quot; in the same sentence, and I start getting really, really nervous. Even if it is to the ERISA - which as I&#039;ll get to - is a probelm. And George is smart enough to know what the result is if you try to control the price in the futures markets.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;&lt;i&gt;Soros cautioned against regulation, since it might simply lead investors to move to unregulated commodities markets, such at OTC trading&lt;/i&gt;&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;That&#039;s the polite way of saying: We&#039;d be on our way to a black market for oil. When are people going to get it through their head that free markets find a way. They will always find a way, because they are too powerful a force. People want their stuff, for the price that can negotiate for it.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Although, I do agree an extremely forceful talk with the fund managers is in order. If I hear one more person say: I&#039;m going to &lt;i&gt;invest&lt;/i&gt; in Commodity Oil Prices, I think I&#039;m going to scream.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;It IS ZERO SUM.  IT&#039;S NOT INVESTING.  BUT IT IS AN ECONOMIC BENEFIT. The futures markets are for small speculators (Who have been keeping downward pressure on the Oil market during this runup by a net short position as shown by the COT Report), large traders (who need a severe talking to) and the Commercials (Who need the stuff).  Any improvements in technology cannot be implemented in a crop before the contract expiration comes due, and the contract comes due.  Each position has an opposite position.  It&#039;s zero sum, and the free market portion of futures speculation (Which I engage in, and have for 12 years) needs re-enforced to the people that have been slamming their money into those markets.  You&#039;re not investing in oil.  You&#039;re trading in oil; negotiating the most fair price given the economic fundamentals.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m sorry, but I see the words: &#8220;prohibit&#8221; and &#8220;Commodities speculation&#8221; in the same sentence, and I start getting really, really nervous. Even if it is to the ERISA &#8211; which as I&#8217;ll get to &#8211; is a probelm. And George is smart enough to know what the result is if you try to control the price in the futures markets.</p>
<p><i>Soros cautioned against regulation, since it might simply lead investors to move to unregulated commodities markets, such at OTC trading</i></p>
<p>That&#8217;s the polite way of saying: We&#8217;d be on our way to a black market for oil. When are people going to get it through their head that free markets find a way. They will always find a way, because they are too powerful a force. People want their stuff, for the price that can negotiate for it.</p>
<p>Although, I do agree an extremely forceful talk with the fund managers is in order. If I hear one more person say: I&#8217;m going to <i>invest</i> in Commodity Oil Prices, I think I&#8217;m going to scream.</p>
<p>It IS ZERO SUM.  IT&#8217;S NOT INVESTING.  BUT IT IS AN ECONOMIC BENEFIT. The futures markets are for small speculators (Who have been keeping downward pressure on the Oil market during this runup by a net short position as shown by the COT Report), large traders (who need a severe talking to) and the Commercials (Who need the stuff).  Any improvements in technology cannot be implemented in a crop before the contract expiration comes due, and the contract comes due.  Each position has an opposite position.  It&#8217;s zero sum, and the free market portion of futures speculation (Which I engage in, and have for 12 years) needs re-enforced to the people that have been slamming their money into those markets.  You&#8217;re not investing in oil.  You&#8217;re trading in oil; negotiating the most fair price given the economic fundamentals.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Kline</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/06/quick-summary-of-soros-testimony-on-oil.html#comment-8968</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Kline</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Jun 2008 07:51:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/06/quick-summary-of-soros-testimony-on-oil/#comment-8968</guid>
		<description>To Anonymous of 2:57, oh _please_, Beethovan&#039;s Opus 95 sounds much better set strings.  Very few of those having any impact on commodity prices via index funds figure to be lower tier folks with an underwater mortgage making early withdrawals from their 401k to play with soybeans.  Most of those pushing the indexes around are big, big money whose holders have, yes, lost beaucoup on MBS bad bets and are looking to recoup any old way and the devil take the calorie-short.  All of _these_ speculators AND their offspring could live mighty comfortably---far more than I---on a _tenth_ of their net worth as of a year ago.  Please, weep not for these who go lame now where once they ran (amok).  It would be a wonder and a blessing if these folks speculating ON THEIR OWN BEHALF in commodities would think a tad more about collective action and responsibility and a whole bunch less about personal balance sheets as of today, &#039;cause they more they try to secure &#039;their future&#039; the more then end up costing all of us, including themselves.  &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;To Daniel Newby:  Oil refiners have their margins collapsing as we speak, and significant producers are actually quitely cutting production.  Your comments are but dust and tow:  look at the world as it is.  This commodities spike is spurring neither production, innovation, nor long-term investment.  It is a speculative parabola---Soros is totally correct on that---which has no productive function , huge interim distortions, and ends in major financial losses for most players and all end consumers.  &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Housing 2001-07 was in no way unprecedented.  The 1817-19 bubble is a very good comparison, but the best one in American history is the property spec bubble of the 1830s; huge, huge, huge, with a massive bust afterwards.  The solution to it?:  &quot;Go west, young man&quot; &#039;cause opportunity in Gotham is an unclaimed corpse in the morgue.  Take a look at Thailand in 1996; there&#039;s a pretty property spec bubble for yah.  Unprecedented NOT.  &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;And I&#039;m glad to see Dorgan and Cantwell talking tuff.  It&#039;s only for the tube at this point, but as things worsen the public will turn to those who want something done that counts.  The idea that &#039;nothing can have any impact&#039; is totally bogus.  If government and capital fight, who wins?  Crack yer history books, fella, vol. 20th century.  Governments can&#039;t call all the shots, and shouldn&#039;t really, but if they want capital out of something or into something, they have the oomph and the stick to get it pretty much done.  When they have the will, which as we see isn&#039;t just yet.  Government intervention is to this point a blunt instrument; it would be much bette if the market was open to suasion and stopped thinking about it&#039;s own lower half and more about its continued health.  This is why Senators are bloviating now; the markets won&#039;t listen, naw.  But watching capital put itself first in a big way when push has come to shove is an excellent tutorial for the public at large.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To Anonymous of 2:57, oh _please_, Beethovan&#8217;s Opus 95 sounds much better set strings.  Very few of those having any impact on commodity prices via index funds figure to be lower tier folks with an underwater mortgage making early withdrawals from their 401k to play with soybeans.  Most of those pushing the indexes around are big, big money whose holders have, yes, lost beaucoup on MBS bad bets and are looking to recoup any old way and the devil take the calorie-short.  All of _these_ speculators AND their offspring could live mighty comfortably&#8212;far more than I&#8212;on a _tenth_ of their net worth as of a year ago.  Please, weep not for these who go lame now where once they ran (amok).  It would be a wonder and a blessing if these folks speculating ON THEIR OWN BEHALF in commodities would think a tad more about collective action and responsibility and a whole bunch less about personal balance sheets as of today, &#8217;cause they more they try to secure &#8216;their future&#8217; the more then end up costing all of us, including themselves.  </p>
<p>To Daniel Newby:  Oil refiners have their margins collapsing as we speak, and significant producers are actually quitely cutting production.  Your comments are but dust and tow:  look at the world as it is.  This commodities spike is spurring neither production, innovation, nor long-term investment.  It is a speculative parabola&#8212;Soros is totally correct on that&#8212;which has no productive function , huge interim distortions, and ends in major financial losses for most players and all end consumers.  </p>
<p>Housing 2001-07 was in no way unprecedented.  The 1817-19 bubble is a very good comparison, but the best one in American history is the property spec bubble of the 1830s; huge, huge, huge, with a massive bust afterwards.  The solution to it?:  &#8220;Go west, young man&#8221; &#8217;cause opportunity in Gotham is an unclaimed corpse in the morgue.  Take a look at Thailand in 1996; there&#8217;s a pretty property spec bubble for yah.  Unprecedented NOT.  </p>
<p>And I&#8217;m glad to see Dorgan and Cantwell talking tuff.  It&#8217;s only for the tube at this point, but as things worsen the public will turn to those who want something done that counts.  The idea that &#8216;nothing can have any impact&#8217; is totally bogus.  If government and capital fight, who wins?  Crack yer history books, fella, vol. 20th century.  Governments can&#8217;t call all the shots, and shouldn&#8217;t really, but if they want capital out of something or into something, they have the oomph and the stick to get it pretty much done.  When they have the will, which as we see isn&#8217;t just yet.  Government intervention is to this point a blunt instrument; it would be much bette if the market was open to suasion and stopped thinking about it&#8217;s own lower half and more about its continued health.  This is why Senators are bloviating now; the markets won&#8217;t listen, naw.  But watching capital put itself first in a big way when push has come to shove is an excellent tutorial for the public at large.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/06/quick-summary-of-soros-testimony-on-oil.html#comment-8961</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Jun 2008 05:35:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/06/quick-summary-of-soros-testimony-on-oil/#comment-8961</guid>
		<description>You guys are blaming the speculators on commodity, while the culprit is the electronic printing press. You guys are blaming helicopter Ben, while the culprit were million of brave Americans who signed under the dotted line. You guys blame those bankers who spins all the time until the music stops, while some guys told you that 19 arabs made WTC 1 2 and 7 falled with Newton&#039;s Apple speed.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Clueless and cowardice in the face of lies and malice.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You guys are blaming the speculators on commodity, while the culprit is the electronic printing press. You guys are blaming helicopter Ben, while the culprit were million of brave Americans who signed under the dotted line. You guys blame those bankers who spins all the time until the music stops, while some guys told you that 19 arabs made WTC 1 2 and 7 falled with Newton&#8217;s Apple speed.</p>
<p>Clueless and cowardice in the face of lies and malice.</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel Newby</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/06/quick-summary-of-soros-testimony-on-oil.html#comment-8958</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Newby</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Jun 2008 04:19:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/06/quick-summary-of-soros-testimony-on-oil/#comment-8958</guid>
		<description>Speculation encourages not just investment, but overinvestment.  Speculative bubbles by definition result in a volcano of overproduction.  All volatility does is scare a little sense into the bubblers, keeping the overproduction from being even worse.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;People are suddenly starving because China&#039;s new middle class is buying up food and feeding it to pigs.  This is not speculation, this is a fundamental shift in demand, and an appallingly sudden shift at that.  Manipulating the risk/reward curve for commodities would make the starvation problem worse, by damaging the profit to be made by supplying the poorer economies.  With investment hamstrung, suppliers would concentrate on the proven profitable Chinese (and Brazilian, and Indian, ...) market.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;The other side of the sudden shifts in demand is the central banks, who imposed gigantic distortions on the risk/reward curve during the Developing Country Middle Class Boom.  Those distortions are now breaking down and the money will start flowing to its natural destinations, so we can expect more sudden, gigantic changes in the flow of money.  Those flow changes will leave many poorer countries high and dry.  Unfortunately the pent up monetary pressure can not be contained by any possible intervention.  The dam is bursting and the water will find its natural level.  The only opportunity is to facilitate the necessary investments to build new supplies.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Speculation encourages not just investment, but overinvestment.  Speculative bubbles by definition result in a volcano of overproduction.  All volatility does is scare a little sense into the bubblers, keeping the overproduction from being even worse.</p>
<p>People are suddenly starving because China&#8217;s new middle class is buying up food and feeding it to pigs.  This is not speculation, this is a fundamental shift in demand, and an appallingly sudden shift at that.  Manipulating the risk/reward curve for commodities would make the starvation problem worse, by damaging the profit to be made by supplying the poorer economies.  With investment hamstrung, suppliers would concentrate on the proven profitable Chinese (and Brazilian, and Indian, &#8230;) market.</p>
<p>The other side of the sudden shifts in demand is the central banks, who imposed gigantic distortions on the risk/reward curve during the Developing Country Middle Class Boom.  Those distortions are now breaking down and the money will start flowing to its natural destinations, so we can expect more sudden, gigantic changes in the flow of money.  Those flow changes will leave many poorer countries high and dry.  Unfortunately the pent up monetary pressure can not be contained by any possible intervention.  The dam is bursting and the water will find its natural level.  The only opportunity is to facilitate the necessary investments to build new supplies.</p>
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		<title>By: ardano</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/06/quick-summary-of-soros-testimony-on-oil.html#comment-8954</link>
		<dc:creator>ardano</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Jun 2008 03:15:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/06/quick-summary-of-soros-testimony-on-oil/#comment-8954</guid>
		<description>that was a lousy hearing, the sound of one hand arguing.  At one point I wondered if soros was worried that he was guilty of the very techniques being debated.  I thought he mumbled his way through the day.  &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;I used to be a hill staffer and I&#039;ll tell you what I was thinking...It was a lousy day for the swaps market.  If what those witnesses were talking about was accurate we&#039;ve got one hell of a problem out there.  I do not accept the 40-40-40 characterization, but I&#039;m not sure what the committee thinks.  You must remember that most Senators and their staffs don&#039;t understand these issues as well as they should.  This hearing does not help the debate.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>that was a lousy hearing, the sound of one hand arguing.  At one point I wondered if soros was worried that he was guilty of the very techniques being debated.  I thought he mumbled his way through the day.  </p>
<p>I used to be a hill staffer and I&#8217;ll tell you what I was thinking&#8230;It was a lousy day for the swaps market.  If what those witnesses were talking about was accurate we&#8217;ve got one hell of a problem out there.  I do not accept the 40-40-40 characterization, but I&#8217;m not sure what the committee thinks.  You must remember that most Senators and their staffs don&#8217;t understand these issues as well as they should.  This hearing does not help the debate.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/06/quick-summary-of-soros-testimony-on-oil.html#comment-8946</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Jun 2008 00:06:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Increases in food prices and energy, if continue, will destabilize a lot of political regimes. Even in the US we are not immune. At some point, to protect themselves politicians will have to do something for the people. Soros understandably does not want that to happen, as he learned how to rip profits from the existing system. He is hardly an advocate for the middle class. When he speaks, he advances his own interests.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Increases in food prices and energy, if continue, will destabilize a lot of political regimes. Even in the US we are not immune. At some point, to protect themselves politicians will have to do something for the people. Soros understandably does not want that to happen, as he learned how to rip profits from the existing system. He is hardly an advocate for the middle class. When he speaks, he advances his own interests.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/06/quick-summary-of-soros-testimony-on-oil.html#comment-8941</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Jun 2008 22:59:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/06/quick-summary-of-soros-testimony-on-oil/#comment-8941</guid>
		<description>Flawed logic. Hot flows of money into commodities increase volatility. Volatility discourages investment. Soros understands that, which is why he is sounding warnings, but even he doesn&#039;t have a good answer.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Try telling &quot;commodities is not a zero sum game&quot; to people who recently could support themselves and are now starving. If 60-75% of your budget is food, you can&#039;t take a 50% increase in food prices. Myron Scholes has warned that the increase in food costs in some developing nations will lead to malnutrition, which will hurt the physical and mental development of children. But no, your inflation hedge is more important than other people&#039;s survival.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Flawed logic. Hot flows of money into commodities increase volatility. Volatility discourages investment. Soros understands that, which is why he is sounding warnings, but even he doesn&#8217;t have a good answer.</p>
<p>Try telling &#8220;commodities is not a zero sum game&#8221; to people who recently could support themselves and are now starving. If 60-75% of your budget is food, you can&#8217;t take a 50% increase in food prices. Myron Scholes has warned that the increase in food costs in some developing nations will lead to malnutrition, which will hurt the physical and mental development of children. But no, your inflation hedge is more important than other people&#8217;s survival.</p>
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