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	<title>Comments on: &quot;When the going gets tough, economists go very quiet&quot;</title>
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		<title>By: Richard Kline</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/07/when-going-gets-tough-economists-go.html#comment-11212</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Kline</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Jul 2008 10:06:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>To Anon of 2:26 AM:  I&#039;ll say this pal:  you&#039;ve got the market on pomposity cornered.  Anyone who for a second imputes to economics the primature of a &#039;science&#039; brands themselves a self-promoting fool in my book.  And &#039;the unwashed are to dim to understand us&#039; broadbrush could be read another way as &#039;our results are too trivial and self-contradictory for common sense to engage them.&#039;  &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt; Look, I&#039;ll give a fair hand to _some_ economists, too, as well as a back hand.  I do think that the best economists understand the _limitations_ of their tools, and try to scale their conclusions to the real and near limits of what they can justifiably conclude.  That makes for modesty of a kind little in evidence in the perspective of your pro-disciplinary comment.  Economics, to me, perhaps works best at disconfirming hypotheses by relatively straightforward statistical and mathematical tests where the data is such that these get traction.  Again, I think the best economists understand this and get the conceptual measure of their focus of study before they wade in with quantfication; they reason well, and only use the math to test and verify a conclusion.  And math is used that way in other human disciplines, sociology or social history, for example.  Yes, quantification can be a disaster there if one thinks that a number is in and of itself a better answer, but good work can be done _with_ math, but not with match alone.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;And re:  nonlinear economic models, I couldn&#039;t be more interested in them than you are yourself.  I have felt that the studies I have read, no more than a fraction of this literature even so, are more talk than result, even if they do try.  If you have citations or particular bodies of work you think good in this sub-field, I suggest that you mention them for those interested; that would indeed be more of a contribution than thus demonstrated.  And your views would have more credibility if you identified yourself.  You might drop in on the guest post of 13 July and make some real input from your perspective on the literature.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To Anon of 2:26 AM:  I&#8217;ll say this pal:  you&#8217;ve got the market on pomposity cornered.  Anyone who for a second imputes to economics the primature of a &#8217;science&#8217; brands themselves a self-promoting fool in my book.  And &#8216;the unwashed are to dim to understand us&#8217; broadbrush could be read another way as &#8216;our results are too trivial and self-contradictory for common sense to engage them.&#8217;  </p>
<p> Look, I&#8217;ll give a fair hand to _some_ economists, too, as well as a back hand.  I do think that the best economists understand the _limitations_ of their tools, and try to scale their conclusions to the real and near limits of what they can justifiably conclude.  That makes for modesty of a kind little in evidence in the perspective of your pro-disciplinary comment.  Economics, to me, perhaps works best at disconfirming hypotheses by relatively straightforward statistical and mathematical tests where the data is such that these get traction.  Again, I think the best economists understand this and get the conceptual measure of their focus of study before they wade in with quantfication; they reason well, and only use the math to test and verify a conclusion.  And math is used that way in other human disciplines, sociology or social history, for example.  Yes, quantification can be a disaster there if one thinks that a number is in and of itself a better answer, but good work can be done _with_ math, but not with match alone.</p>
<p>And re:  nonlinear economic models, I couldn&#8217;t be more interested in them than you are yourself.  I have felt that the studies I have read, no more than a fraction of this literature even so, are more talk than result, even if they do try.  If you have citations or particular bodies of work you think good in this sub-field, I suggest that you mention them for those interested; that would indeed be more of a contribution than thus demonstrated.  And your views would have more credibility if you identified yourself.  You might drop in on the guest post of 13 July and make some real input from your perspective on the literature.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/07/when-going-gets-tough-economists-go.html#comment-11036</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jul 2008 06:26:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/07/when-the-going-gets-tough-economists-go-very-quiet/#comment-11036</guid>
		<description>What criticism of economists! Time and again I find that those who ridicule science are more often than not those who understand it the least. This debate appears to be no different. Science, in theory or method, is not a panacea for a healthy economy. Science in the context of economics has never purported to have the wherewithal to predict, explain, or cure the constructed institution of all markets at all times. All to often economists have conducted exemplary research that contributes to our perceptual understandings of markets only to have the ‘no-it-alls’ extend such findings far beyond the scope of the research itself. That is to say, it is usually others that draw, extend, or flat out make up implications of the research as they deem fit or as they do not really understand the research in the first place. It is a pity that many of these folks think that because they have taken a semester or two of econometrics that they are now in a trained position to conduct such criticisms accurately or fairly. Never mind that fact that few, if any, economists or critics have ever taken the time to study the philosophy and methods of science and theory construction.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Moreover, many of these discrepancies may soon be corrected and/or better understood. First, as the still emerging and successful research program of positive political economy becomes more prevalent in the academy we will also see dramatic shifts in the demographics of the political and economic professions. Second, the stronger emphasis of bridging the gap between empirical and formal models of politics and economics will begin to weed out poorly performing models as empirical model are nested in formal deductive theories and formal models are validated by derived empirical models with more advanced modeling techniques and larger data sets. Third, many of the problems with economic models have been the reliance on (becomingly) crude technical applications. Unfortunately, our tools seem to lag behind our instinctual understanding of politics, economics, and markets, and the world in general. Until recently nearly all advanced economic research has been conducted under the rational actor and linear perspectives when we have known for years that actors are not rational, nor is anything linear. Advances in approaches that emphasize nonlinearity are rapidly materializing in a very serious way. It would be wise for one to keep their eyes pitched to computational methods: particularly agent based computational economics and it appendages.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What criticism of economists! Time and again I find that those who ridicule science are more often than not those who understand it the least. This debate appears to be no different. Science, in theory or method, is not a panacea for a healthy economy. Science in the context of economics has never purported to have the wherewithal to predict, explain, or cure the constructed institution of all markets at all times. All to often economists have conducted exemplary research that contributes to our perceptual understandings of markets only to have the ‘no-it-alls’ extend such findings far beyond the scope of the research itself. That is to say, it is usually others that draw, extend, or flat out make up implications of the research as they deem fit or as they do not really understand the research in the first place. It is a pity that many of these folks think that because they have taken a semester or two of econometrics that they are now in a trained position to conduct such criticisms accurately or fairly. Never mind that fact that few, if any, economists or critics have ever taken the time to study the philosophy and methods of science and theory construction.</p>
<p>Moreover, many of these discrepancies may soon be corrected and/or better understood. First, as the still emerging and successful research program of positive political economy becomes more prevalent in the academy we will also see dramatic shifts in the demographics of the political and economic professions. Second, the stronger emphasis of bridging the gap between empirical and formal models of politics and economics will begin to weed out poorly performing models as empirical model are nested in formal deductive theories and formal models are validated by derived empirical models with more advanced modeling techniques and larger data sets. Third, many of the problems with economic models have been the reliance on (becomingly) crude technical applications. Unfortunately, our tools seem to lag behind our instinctual understanding of politics, economics, and markets, and the world in general. Until recently nearly all advanced economic research has been conducted under the rational actor and linear perspectives when we have known for years that actors are not rational, nor is anything linear. Advances in approaches that emphasize nonlinearity are rapidly materializing in a very serious way. It would be wise for one to keep their eyes pitched to computational methods: particularly agent based computational economics and it appendages.</p>
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		<title>By: Juan</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/07/when-going-gets-tough-economists-go.html#comment-11019</link>
		<dc:creator>Juan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jul 2008 01:26:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/07/when-the-going-gets-tough-economists-go-very-quiet/#comment-11019</guid>
		<description>giving up objective value theories in favor of need/individual preference based marginalist theories took place during the later 19th century and was for practical purpose the transforming of economics into an ideology appropriate to a moment of greater working class size and cohesion while the previous class of revolutionary capitalists was being displaced by a new and still more effete group. &lt;br/&gt;Relative weights were shifting, owners of capital no longer required the working class as partners in the overthrow of ancien regimes but were increasingly on the defensive v. that class which they depend(ed) on. Theories of value based on labor were too empowering and had to be denied, no matter that this put end to much if not most explanatory power and possibilities for relatively accurate prediction.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;By the mid 1950s, Samuelson could write: &lt;i&gt;by means of appropriately reinforcing monetary and fiscal policies, our mixed-enterprise system can avoid the excesses of boom and slump and look forward to healthy progressive growth&lt;/i&gt; (Paul Samuelson, &lt;i&gt;Economics&lt;/i&gt;, 1958) A year which also happened to be one of recession though I think he had written the same in 1955.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;In 1969, when he should have noticed the already becoming evident transition, Harrod could write in his manual Money that fairly &lt;i&gt;full employment should now be regarded as an institutional feature of the British economy.&lt;/i&gt; (Roy Harrod, Money, London 1969)&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Even better, Stoleru&#039;s 1970 assertion: &lt;i&gt;It has often been said that a crisis such as the Great Depression could no longer take place today, given the progress made in techniques of state countercyclical intervention. These claims, presumptuous as they may seem, are not without foundation.&lt;/i&gt; (L. Stoleru, &lt;i&gt;L’équilibre et la croissance économique&lt;/i&gt;, Paris 1970)&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;In contrast, a Belgian heterodox economist wrote in 1969:&lt;br/&gt;&lt;i&gt;[We] reached three conclusions: first, that the essential motor forces of this long-term expansion would progressively exhaust themselves, in this way setting off a more and more marked intensification of interimperialist competition; secondly, that the deliberate application of Keynesian antirecessionary techniques would step up the worldwide inflation and constant erosion of the buying power of currencies, finally producing a very grave crisis in the international monetary system; thirdly, that these two factors in conjunction would give rise to increasing limited recessions, inclining the course of economic development toward a general recession...[which] would certainly differ from the great depression of 1929-32 both in extent and duration. Nonetheless, it would strike all the developed countries and considerably exceed the recessions of the last twenty years. Two of these predictions have come true. The third promises to do so in the seventies.&lt;/i&gt; (E. Mandel, Intercontinental Press, 14 July 1969)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>giving up objective value theories in favor of need/individual preference based marginalist theories took place during the later 19th century and was for practical purpose the transforming of economics into an ideology appropriate to a moment of greater working class size and cohesion while the previous class of revolutionary capitalists was being displaced by a new and still more effete group. <br />Relative weights were shifting, owners of capital no longer required the working class as partners in the overthrow of ancien regimes but were increasingly on the defensive v. that class which they depend(ed) on. Theories of value based on labor were too empowering and had to be denied, no matter that this put end to much if not most explanatory power and possibilities for relatively accurate prediction.</p>
<p>By the mid 1950s, Samuelson could write: <i>by means of appropriately reinforcing monetary and fiscal policies, our mixed-enterprise system can avoid the excesses of boom and slump and look forward to healthy progressive growth</i> (Paul Samuelson, <i>Economics</i>, 1958) A year which also happened to be one of recession though I think he had written the same in 1955.</p>
<p>In 1969, when he should have noticed the already becoming evident transition, Harrod could write in his manual Money that fairly <i>full employment should now be regarded as an institutional feature of the British economy.</i> (Roy Harrod, Money, London 1969)</p>
<p>Even better, Stoleru&#8217;s 1970 assertion: <i>It has often been said that a crisis such as the Great Depression could no longer take place today, given the progress made in techniques of state countercyclical intervention. These claims, presumptuous as they may seem, are not without foundation.</i> (L. Stoleru, <i>L’équilibre et la croissance économique</i>, Paris 1970)</p>
<p>In contrast, a Belgian heterodox economist wrote in 1969:<br /><i>[We] reached three conclusions: first, that the essential motor forces of this long-term expansion would progressively exhaust themselves, in this way setting off a more and more marked intensification of interimperialist competition; secondly, that the deliberate application of Keynesian antirecessionary techniques would step up the worldwide inflation and constant erosion of the buying power of currencies, finally producing a very grave crisis in the international monetary system; thirdly, that these two factors in conjunction would give rise to increasing limited recessions, inclining the course of economic development toward a general recession&#8230;[which] would certainly differ from the great depression of 1929-32 both in extent and duration. Nonetheless, it would strike all the developed countries and considerably exceed the recessions of the last twenty years. Two of these predictions have come true. The third promises to do so in the seventies.</i> (E. Mandel, Intercontinental Press, 14 July 1969)</p>
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		<title>By: JR</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/07/when-going-gets-tough-economists-go.html#comment-10945</link>
		<dc:creator>JR</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jul 2008 04:11:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/07/when-the-going-gets-tough-economists-go-very-quiet/#comment-10945</guid>
		<description>Saying that that the economists are to blame for the current economic crises we are experiencing today is missing the point fo what has gone wrong.  Those to blame are those who extracted every rent, penny, and pence at every opportunity.  I mean really, is it the economists fault that banks routinely and perversely ignored their decades of knowledge as lenders and lent too much money to those who could not help themselves?  Is it the economists fault that I-Banks securitized every loan good and bad and sold them as a homgenous product?  Is it economists fault that Glass-Steagal and related regulations were overturned?  Absolutely not is the answer to all of these questions and others; the free-market, laisez-faire, turn a blind to regulation body of economic philosophy has been in existence much longer than the seeds of this current economic malaise.  The people you should be turning your bile upon are the greedy, the con-men, and the usurers who enriched themselves at the expense of the world economy.  Friedman, Galbraith, Rand, et al. didn&#039;t get us here, but Phil Gramm, John Merriweather, Chuck Prince and friends did (to name a small few). It is unfathomable how some of you people can lose sight of this.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Saying that that the economists are to blame for the current economic crises we are experiencing today is missing the point fo what has gone wrong.  Those to blame are those who extracted every rent, penny, and pence at every opportunity.  I mean really, is it the economists fault that banks routinely and perversely ignored their decades of knowledge as lenders and lent too much money to those who could not help themselves?  Is it the economists fault that I-Banks securitized every loan good and bad and sold them as a homgenous product?  Is it economists fault that Glass-Steagal and related regulations were overturned?  Absolutely not is the answer to all of these questions and others; the free-market, laisez-faire, turn a blind to regulation body of economic philosophy has been in existence much longer than the seeds of this current economic malaise.  The people you should be turning your bile upon are the greedy, the con-men, and the usurers who enriched themselves at the expense of the world economy.  Friedman, Galbraith, Rand, et al. didn&#8217;t get us here, but Phil Gramm, John Merriweather, Chuck Prince and friends did (to name a small few). It is unfathomable how some of you people can lose sight of this.</p>
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		<title>By: jest</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/07/when-going-gets-tough-economists-go.html#comment-10943</link>
		<dc:creator>jest</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jul 2008 03:49:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/07/when-the-going-gets-tough-economists-go-very-quiet/#comment-10943</guid>
		<description>i always felt that economics was a branch of philosophy. weren&#039;t the first classical economists (say, ricardo, smith, etc.) philosophers and writers, rather than scientists? &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;austrians seem to be the only ones who understand this, and likewise get things right more often than not.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;but i agree; the quacks have out worn their usefulness. i&#039;d lump them in the same category as central bankers, mutual fund managers, and stock analysts. they exist only to push marketing material for their constituents.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i always felt that economics was a branch of philosophy. weren&#8217;t the first classical economists (say, ricardo, smith, etc.) philosophers and writers, rather than scientists? </p>
<p>austrians seem to be the only ones who understand this, and likewise get things right more often than not.</p>
<p>but i agree; the quacks have out worn their usefulness. i&#8217;d lump them in the same category as central bankers, mutual fund managers, and stock analysts. they exist only to push marketing material for their constituents.</p>
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		<title>By: Spencer</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/07/when-going-gets-tough-economists-go.html#comment-10917</link>
		<dc:creator>Spencer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Jul 2008 20:43:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/07/when-the-going-gets-tough-economists-go-very-quiet/#comment-10917</guid>
		<description>Maybe we could use a new maxim:&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;&quot;Economics is always and everywhere a political phenomenon.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maybe we could use a new maxim:</p>
<p>&#8220;Economics is always and everywhere a political phenomenon.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: S</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/07/when-going-gets-tough-economists-go.html#comment-10896</link>
		<dc:creator>S</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Jul 2008 14:23:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/07/when-the-going-gets-tough-economists-go-very-quiet/#comment-10896</guid>
		<description>Wonderful article</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wonderful article</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/07/when-going-gets-tough-economists-go.html#comment-10895</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Jul 2008 14:19:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/07/when-the-going-gets-tough-economists-go-very-quiet/#comment-10895</guid>
		<description>I am still amazed that the economists are getting off so easy. The last eight years has been an upside down, free-lunch orgy of debt and money expansion. Anyone taking the time to use their common freaking sense would have noted that the US was eating it&#039;s seed corn in an orgy of borrowing against it&#039;s accumulated wealth. &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;The detonator for this bomb has been the economists at the CB&#039;s across the world. The debt bubble and the destruction of savings are two sides of the same coin. Cannot have one without the other. A sure fire recipe for individual wealth destruction that somehow has been rationilized at the national (international) policy level.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Truly a winter of economic thought that continues.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am still amazed that the economists are getting off so easy. The last eight years has been an upside down, free-lunch orgy of debt and money expansion. Anyone taking the time to use their common freaking sense would have noted that the US was eating it&#8217;s seed corn in an orgy of borrowing against it&#8217;s accumulated wealth. </p>
<p>The detonator for this bomb has been the economists at the CB&#8217;s across the world. The debt bubble and the destruction of savings are two sides of the same coin. Cannot have one without the other. A sure fire recipe for individual wealth destruction that somehow has been rationilized at the national (international) policy level.</p>
<p>Truly a winter of economic thought that continues.</p>
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		<title>By: martenscs</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/07/when-going-gets-tough-economists-go.html#comment-10894</link>
		<dc:creator>martenscs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Jul 2008 14:04:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/07/when-the-going-gets-tough-economists-go-very-quiet/#comment-10894</guid>
		<description>Economics is very simple in a capitalist society. Children sit down and understand it. They play Monopoly and understand the end game.&lt;br/&gt;The issue is how we try to change the end game to come up with a happier ending. That is the purpose of Economists. Figuring out a happier ending for Monopoly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Economics is very simple in a capitalist society. Children sit down and understand it. They play Monopoly and understand the end game.<br />The issue is how we try to change the end game to come up with a happier ending. That is the purpose of Economists. Figuring out a happier ending for Monopoly.</p>
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		<title>By: Independent Accountant</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/07/when-going-gets-tough-economists-go.html#comment-10890</link>
		<dc:creator>Independent Accountant</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Jul 2008 12:56:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/07/when-the-going-gets-tough-economists-go-very-quiet/#comment-10890</guid>
		<description>I have often likened economists to alchemists.  The latest incarnation of alchemy is &quot;structured finance&quot;.  Economics is guilty of &quot;scientism&quot;, i.e., aping the methods of science to invoke its prestige.   Some humility on the part of economists is in order.  That&#039;s one reason I liked Milton Friedman.  Uncle Miltie wasn&#039;t afraid to say things like there is little economists can do to ameliorate a situation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have often likened economists to alchemists.  The latest incarnation of alchemy is &#8220;structured finance&#8221;.  Economics is guilty of &#8220;scientism&#8221;, i.e., aping the methods of science to invoke its prestige.   Some humility on the part of economists is in order.  That&#8217;s one reason I liked Milton Friedman.  Uncle Miltie wasn&#8217;t afraid to say things like there is little economists can do to ameliorate a situation.</p>
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