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	<title>Comments on: Futures vs CDSs: the case for regulated markets</title>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/08/futures-vs-cdss-case-for-regulated.html#comment-12695</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Aug 2008 01:12:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I disagree wholeheartedly.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;The reason that futures markets have better volume (the contracts that survive over time anyway), trading liquidity, etc is due to the standardization of the contracts AND the fact that you have substantial credit benefits through the exchange ownership (or public companies today).&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;If someone brings me an oil futures contract for sale &quot;at a discount&quot; I could easily look up the price on the exchange and consider buying it or not buying it, but if someone brings me a structured note with odd terms I&#039;ve never seen before and credit risk derived from some 3rd party I&#039;ve never heard of, there&#039;s no way to easily evaluate the offer, so there&#039;s almost ZERO possibility I&#039;d even look at the so called &quot;asset&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I disagree wholeheartedly.</p>
<p>The reason that futures markets have better volume (the contracts that survive over time anyway), trading liquidity, etc is due to the standardization of the contracts AND the fact that you have substantial credit benefits through the exchange ownership (or public companies today).</p>
<p>If someone brings me an oil futures contract for sale &#8220;at a discount&#8221; I could easily look up the price on the exchange and consider buying it or not buying it, but if someone brings me a structured note with odd terms I&#8217;ve never seen before and credit risk derived from some 3rd party I&#8217;ve never heard of, there&#8217;s no way to easily evaluate the offer, so there&#8217;s almost ZERO possibility I&#8217;d even look at the so called &#8220;asset&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Juan</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/08/futures-vs-cdss-case-for-regulated.html#comment-12692</link>
		<dc:creator>Juan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Aug 2008 20:20:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Lune,&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;While I very much agree with the thrust of your post, only want to note that the Commodity Futures Modernization Act of 2000 was also a modifiction of the Commodity Exchange Act. Contracts executed on electronic trading facilities, and bilateral swaps, were effectively made exempt from most CFTC regulation. (&quot;Enron loophole&quot;)&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;So far as Amaranth, the size of its calendar spread bets were, well, extreme and, after NYMEX began trying to impose limits, the fund was able to offset through the ICE. (&quot;London loophole&quot;?)&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;My point? Commodities&#039; trade has been increasingly deregulated and de facto unsupervised rather than the contrary and that, in conjunction with reallocation strategies etc, this may well have contributed to the commodity price run up (which, IMO, was more interesting than the recent decline).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lune,</p>
<p>While I very much agree with the thrust of your post, only want to note that the Commodity Futures Modernization Act of 2000 was also a modifiction of the Commodity Exchange Act. Contracts executed on electronic trading facilities, and bilateral swaps, were effectively made exempt from most CFTC regulation. (&#8221;Enron loophole&#8221;)</p>
<p>So far as Amaranth, the size of its calendar spread bets were, well, extreme and, after NYMEX began trying to impose limits, the fund was able to offset through the ICE. (&#8221;London loophole&#8221;?)</p>
<p>My point? Commodities&#8217; trade has been increasingly deregulated and de facto unsupervised rather than the contrary and that, in conjunction with reallocation strategies etc, this may well have contributed to the commodity price run up (which, IMO, was more interesting than the recent decline).</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/08/futures-vs-cdss-case-for-regulated.html#comment-12688</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Aug 2008 19:20:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>The problem with standardization... decreased bid/ask.  Thus, the banks/brokers will only come kicking and screaming.  It will be best for the market in the end.  Adios middleman fat.  Same fate awaits mortgage/interest rate fee racket that fell upon the equity commissions pyramid.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The problem with standardization&#8230; decreased bid/ask.  Thus, the banks/brokers will only come kicking and screaming.  It will be best for the market in the end.  Adios middleman fat.  Same fate awaits mortgage/interest rate fee racket that fell upon the equity commissions pyramid.</p>
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		<title>By: tz</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/08/futures-vs-cdss-case-for-regulated.html#comment-12672</link>
		<dc:creator>tz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Aug 2008 12:38:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I would argue that the OTC markets were liquid because of the &quot;contractually obligated market makers&quot;.  If so there could be no case of a &quot;no bid&quot;.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Also futures and the rest has a &quot;volume&quot; published for each contract, stock, etc.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;A market maker is NOT an exchange, some amorphous obligation is not volume.  If they could be traded, why weren&#039;t they?  The prices had to change over time, so there should have been a daily bid-ask.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Or perhaps we have different definitions of liquidity, and yours doesn&#039;t require any trading volume.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Perhaps an exchange can handle large price drops maintaining liquidity (and having both longs and shorts).  But a desk somewhere can&#039;t deal with a million sell orders with no buy orders.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would argue that the OTC markets were liquid because of the &#8220;contractually obligated market makers&#8221;.  If so there could be no case of a &#8220;no bid&#8221;.</p>
<p>Also futures and the rest has a &#8220;volume&#8221; published for each contract, stock, etc.</p>
<p>A market maker is NOT an exchange, some amorphous obligation is not volume.  If they could be traded, why weren&#8217;t they?  The prices had to change over time, so there should have been a daily bid-ask.</p>
<p>Or perhaps we have different definitions of liquidity, and yours doesn&#8217;t require any trading volume.</p>
<p>Perhaps an exchange can handle large price drops maintaining liquidity (and having both longs and shorts).  But a desk somewhere can&#8217;t deal with a million sell orders with no buy orders.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/08/futures-vs-cdss-case-for-regulated.html#comment-12669</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Aug 2008 10:38:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Customization of derivitivies adds opaqueness. The opposite of opaqueness, transparency, is the quality that makes the commodities markets attractive. &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;As we are now seeing opaqueness works ok untill ripples in credit markets appear and then few are interested in an opaque product that they cannot readily understand. Fear overcomes greed.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;For derivitives to remain attractive in normal and roiled credit markets they need to be readily understood by all players...Like oil is oil (with differing grades), wheat is wheat (with differing grades), etc. Somehow, transparency will have to be introduced into derivatives products if they are to remain attractive in good times and bad.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;River</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Customization of derivitivies adds opaqueness. The opposite of opaqueness, transparency, is the quality that makes the commodities markets attractive. </p>
<p>As we are now seeing opaqueness works ok untill ripples in credit markets appear and then few are interested in an opaque product that they cannot readily understand. Fear overcomes greed.</p>
<p>For derivitives to remain attractive in normal and roiled credit markets they need to be readily understood by all players&#8230;Like oil is oil (with differing grades), wheat is wheat (with differing grades), etc. Somehow, transparency will have to be introduced into derivatives products if they are to remain attractive in good times and bad.</p>
<p>River</p>
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		<title>By: Lune</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/08/futures-vs-cdss-case-for-regulated.html#comment-12663</link>
		<dc:creator>Lune</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Aug 2008 06:18:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Steve-&lt;br/&gt;You&#039;re right that the particulars of the circumstances surrounding Amaranth and LTCM make the comparison more complex than merely exchange-traded vs OTC markets. But that said, if what you say is true, that Amaranth blew up because of their OTC positions, then trading firms should be supporting the move to exchanges since that mitigates some of the market factors that did in Amaranth. OTOH, I&#039;m sure they make lucrative fees off the inefficiencies and uncertainties of OTC markets, so they&#039;d be loath to give that up...&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;STS-&lt;br/&gt;Absolutely. Unfortunately, good regulation that works smoothly becomes so embedded in the woodwork that its presence is hardly noticed, while bad regulation causes problems and is always noticed. Thus, people get into arguments about regulation vs. no regulation because the only regulation that&#039;s extensively noticed is bad regulation. Call it the squeaky wheel phenomenon...&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Tom-&lt;br/&gt;Thanks. Will try to stay away from claims of obviousness in the future :-)&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;David-&lt;br/&gt;I&#039;m not a derivatives trader, so I&#039;ll defer to your expertise. But I&#039;d wager that a lot of the purposes served by customized derivatives can be adequately fulfilled by standardized instruments as well. For example, standardized stock options can be combined to execute some pretty specific strategies like collar spreads, butterflies, condors, etc. Similarly, while one standardized instrument may not fit your need exactly, a combination of several probably would.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;At any rate, the loss of &lt;i&gt;some&lt;/i&gt; flexibility and customizability is a small price to pay for the advantages of a more robust market (does any option trader really lament not being able to buy 3 year leaps that expire on April 23rd or something?)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steve-<br />You&#8217;re right that the particulars of the circumstances surrounding Amaranth and LTCM make the comparison more complex than merely exchange-traded vs OTC markets. But that said, if what you say is true, that Amaranth blew up because of their OTC positions, then trading firms should be supporting the move to exchanges since that mitigates some of the market factors that did in Amaranth. OTOH, I&#8217;m sure they make lucrative fees off the inefficiencies and uncertainties of OTC markets, so they&#8217;d be loath to give that up&#8230;</p>
<p>STS-<br />Absolutely. Unfortunately, good regulation that works smoothly becomes so embedded in the woodwork that its presence is hardly noticed, while bad regulation causes problems and is always noticed. Thus, people get into arguments about regulation vs. no regulation because the only regulation that&#8217;s extensively noticed is bad regulation. Call it the squeaky wheel phenomenon&#8230;</p>
<p>Tom-<br />Thanks. Will try to stay away from claims of obviousness in the future <img src='http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>David-<br />I&#8217;m not a derivatives trader, so I&#8217;ll defer to your expertise. But I&#8217;d wager that a lot of the purposes served by customized derivatives can be adequately fulfilled by standardized instruments as well. For example, standardized stock options can be combined to execute some pretty specific strategies like collar spreads, butterflies, condors, etc. Similarly, while one standardized instrument may not fit your need exactly, a combination of several probably would.</p>
<p>At any rate, the loss of <i>some</i> flexibility and customizability is a small price to pay for the advantages of a more robust market (does any option trader really lament not being able to buy 3 year leaps that expire on April 23rd or something?)</p>
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		<title>By: David Merkel</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/08/futures-vs-cdss-case-for-regulated.html#comment-12660</link>
		<dc:creator>David Merkel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Aug 2008 05:14:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>The trouble is, there is a need for customized, tailored derivatives.  Exchanges can only do vanilla... &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Here&#039;s the test.  Try moving interest rate swaps to an exchange.  They are pretty vanilla.  If you can do that, then try swaptions, currency swaps, etc.  &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Try credit and mortgage derivatives later... I don&#039;t think they will work in an exchange format because of the need for uniqueness in exposures.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The trouble is, there is a need for customized, tailored derivatives.  Exchanges can only do vanilla&#8230; </p>
<p>Here&#8217;s the test.  Try moving interest rate swaps to an exchange.  They are pretty vanilla.  If you can do that, then try swaptions, currency swaps, etc.  </p>
<p>Try credit and mortgage derivatives later&#8230; I don&#8217;t think they will work in an exchange format because of the need for uniqueness in exposures.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom Lindmark</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/08/futures-vs-cdss-case-for-regulated.html#comment-12658</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Lindmark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Aug 2008 04:53:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Nice article. No obvious truths at all. Just kidding. Well thought out and well written.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Not a great fan of regulation but what you propose makes some sense.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nice article. No obvious truths at all. Just kidding. Well thought out and well written.</p>
<p>Not a great fan of regulation but what you propose makes some sense.</p>
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		<title>By: STS</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/08/futures-vs-cdss-case-for-regulated.html#comment-12655</link>
		<dc:creator>STS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Aug 2008 03:51:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>This is an excellent illustration of the way well designed market mechanisms (including regulation) can add enormous value to free markets.  &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;The debate shouldn&#039;t be &quot;regulation vs. no regulation&quot;, it should be &quot;good regulations vs. bad regulations&quot;.  Not all regulations are alike.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is an excellent illustration of the way well designed market mechanisms (including regulation) can add enormous value to free markets.  </p>
<p>The debate shouldn&#8217;t be &#8220;regulation vs. no regulation&#8221;, it should be &#8220;good regulations vs. bad regulations&#8221;.  Not all regulations are alike.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/08/futures-vs-cdss-case-for-regulated.html#comment-12654</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Aug 2008 03:35:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Don&#039;t know a whole lot about these things but what you say makes sense.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Don&#8217;t know a whole lot about these things but what you say makes sense.</p>
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