<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: CFTC Investigating Whether Big Traders Lied About Oil Inventories</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/09/cftc-investigating-whether-big-traders.html/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/09/cftc-investigating-whether-big-traders.html</link>
	<description></description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 23 Nov 2009 03:54:45 -0500</lastBuildDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4</generator>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
		<item>
		<title>By: Juan</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/09/cftc-investigating-whether-big-traders.html#comment-14146</link>
		<dc:creator>Juan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Sep 2008 21:06:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/09/cftc-investigating-whether-big-traders-lied-about-oil-inventories/#comment-14146</guid>
		<description>Please pardon if I&#039;m repeating myself but have been &quot;covering&quot; this for so long I lose track.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;On basis of its Marathon case, the CFTC has not been unaware of attempted reporting manipulation(s) through the physical trade. From Aug 2007: &lt;br/&gt;[clip]&lt;br/&gt;&lt;i&gt;Washington, D.C. – The U.S. Commodity Futures Trading Commission (CFTC) today announced the issuance of an order filing and simultaneously settling charges against Marathon Petroleum Company (MPC), a subsidiary of Marathon Oil Corporation, based in Findlay, Ohio, for attempting to manipulate a price of spot cash West Texas Intermediate (WTI) crude oil delivered at Cushing, Oklahoma on November 26, 2003, by attempting to influence downward the Platts market assessment for spot cash WTI for that day.&lt;/i&gt;&lt;br/&gt;(http://www.cftc.gov/newsroom/enforcementpressreleases/2007/pr5366-07.html)&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Then, more directly related to Cushing, change in forward curve and inventory levels, this Oct 2007 WSJ article by Ann Davis:&lt;br/&gt;[clip]&lt;br/&gt;&lt;i&gt;By the end of last year [2006], independent oil-storage firms around the world were 97% full, according to Sanford Bernstein analysts. Two tank owners in Cushing say that by this April they were turning potential customers away. Some traders even leased ocean tankers to use for storage, although that cost twice as much, or more, than land-based storage. Through it all, U.S. consumption was relatively flat. Over the summer, OPEC ministers pointed to high oil inventories in the U.S. as a reason to keep a lid on production.&lt;/i&gt;&lt;br/&gt;(http://online.wsj.com/public/article_print/SB119162309507450611.html)&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Krugman&#039;s error, though, had more to do with reliance upon theory which presupposed physical trade to be price determinant; also to say that he (unconsciously) demanded reality conform to theory -- not uncommon and obviates need for sufficient research esp when become commonplace stories seem to validate.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Please pardon if I&#8217;m repeating myself but have been &#8220;covering&#8221; this for so long I lose track.</p>
<p>On basis of its Marathon case, the CFTC has not been unaware of attempted reporting manipulation(s) through the physical trade. From Aug 2007: <br />[clip]<br /><i>Washington, D.C. – The U.S. Commodity Futures Trading Commission (CFTC) today announced the issuance of an order filing and simultaneously settling charges against Marathon Petroleum Company (MPC), a subsidiary of Marathon Oil Corporation, based in Findlay, Ohio, for attempting to manipulate a price of spot cash West Texas Intermediate (WTI) crude oil delivered at Cushing, Oklahoma on November 26, 2003, by attempting to influence downward the Platts market assessment for spot cash WTI for that day.</i><br />(<a href="http://www.cftc.gov/newsroom/enforcementpressreleases/2007/pr5366-07.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.cftc.gov/newsroom/enforcementpressreleases/2007/pr5366-07.html</a>)</p>
<p>Then, more directly related to Cushing, change in forward curve and inventory levels, this Oct 2007 WSJ article by Ann Davis:<br />[clip]<br /><i>By the end of last year [2006], independent oil-storage firms around the world were 97% full, according to Sanford Bernstein analysts. Two tank owners in Cushing say that by this April they were turning potential customers away. Some traders even leased ocean tankers to use for storage, although that cost twice as much, or more, than land-based storage. Through it all, U.S. consumption was relatively flat. Over the summer, OPEC ministers pointed to high oil inventories in the U.S. as a reason to keep a lid on production.</i><br />(<a href="http://online.wsj.com/public/article_print/SB119162309507450611.html" rel="nofollow">http://online.wsj.com/public/article_print/SB119162309507450611.html</a>)</p>
<p>Krugman&#8217;s error, though, had more to do with reliance upon theory which presupposed physical trade to be price determinant; also to say that he (unconsciously) demanded reality conform to theory &#8212; not uncommon and obviates need for sufficient research esp when become commonplace stories seem to validate.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: leftback</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/09/cftc-investigating-whether-big-traders.html#comment-14144</link>
		<dc:creator>leftback</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Sep 2008 20:51:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/09/cftc-investigating-whether-big-traders-lied-about-oil-inventories/#comment-14144</guid>
		<description>a is correct - it is all in the charts. once anything goes parabolic you know that normal market dynamics have been suspended. this is something that all traders now, but for some reason Serious Economists are sometimes blind to these things. &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;You can usually tell that you are correct when you state the obvious and are attacked wildly. So it is not surprising that Yves was treated so rudely.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;I had the same reaction in various places when I criticized Krugman&#039;s rather silly posts - although a smart economist, he obviously had NO idea of the extent of hedge fund positions or the way that futures markets can be manipulated by small perturbations of the data. BTW, I like his columns and think he is a terrific writer.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;A bubble is a bubble, and they all end the same way, with a 50% haircut. Nikkei, NASDAQ, Shanghai, crude. So that means we will see $75 oil, probably in the spring. Ya listenin&#039; there, T Boone?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>a is correct &#8211; it is all in the charts. once anything goes parabolic you know that normal market dynamics have been suspended. this is something that all traders now, but for some reason Serious Economists are sometimes blind to these things. </p>
<p>You can usually tell that you are correct when you state the obvious and are attacked wildly. So it is not surprising that Yves was treated so rudely.</p>
<p>I had the same reaction in various places when I criticized Krugman&#8217;s rather silly posts &#8211; although a smart economist, he obviously had NO idea of the extent of hedge fund positions or the way that futures markets can be manipulated by small perturbations of the data. BTW, I like his columns and think he is a terrific writer.</p>
<p>A bubble is a bubble, and they all end the same way, with a 50% haircut. Nikkei, NASDAQ, Shanghai, crude. So that means we will see $75 oil, probably in the spring. Ya listenin&#8217; there, T Boone?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Mikey</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/09/cftc-investigating-whether-big-traders.html#comment-14124</link>
		<dc:creator>Mikey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Sep 2008 18:22:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/09/cftc-investigating-whether-big-traders-lied-about-oil-inventories/#comment-14124</guid>
		<description>Good call Yves.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Also, I wonder what happened to the U.S. and this concept of &quot;good faith&quot; dealings? I&#039;m 42, so I&#039;m not &lt;i&gt;that&lt;/i&gt; old, but there&#039;s this gaming of the system now that seems utterly pervasive.  Either that or I&#039;m not as naive anymore.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good call Yves.</p>
<p>Also, I wonder what happened to the U.S. and this concept of &#8220;good faith&#8221; dealings? I&#8217;m 42, so I&#8217;m not <i>that</i> old, but there&#8217;s this gaming of the system now that seems utterly pervasive.  Either that or I&#8217;m not as naive anymore.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Freude Bud</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/09/cftc-investigating-whether-big-traders.html#comment-14122</link>
		<dc:creator>Freude Bud</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Sep 2008 16:50:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/09/cftc-investigating-whether-big-traders-lied-about-oil-inventories/#comment-14122</guid>
		<description>Yes, the possibility of manipulation is a function of the opaque/obfuscatory state of the information discovery process, which is a problem almost entirely found in the cash market, not the futures market.  Which is the point of the article, the CFTC is going after people who are players in the cash market and who, evidently, the CFTC believes are attempting to manipulate the markets by falsifying their inventory and shipping reports.  (Or so I infer.)&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;And, yes, Yves should be congratulated for pointing out the obfuscatory and opaque nature of the cash market in oil, but not for going after &quot;speculation&quot;--whatever that might mean, and if she really, in fact, did.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, the possibility of manipulation is a function of the opaque/obfuscatory state of the information discovery process, which is a problem almost entirely found in the cash market, not the futures market.  Which is the point of the article, the CFTC is going after people who are players in the cash market and who, evidently, the CFTC believes are attempting to manipulate the markets by falsifying their inventory and shipping reports.  (Or so I infer.)</p>
<p>And, yes, Yves should be congratulated for pointing out the obfuscatory and opaque nature of the cash market in oil, but not for going after &#8220;speculation&#8221;&#8211;whatever that might mean, and if she really, in fact, did.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: mxq</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/09/cftc-investigating-whether-big-traders.html#comment-14117</link>
		<dc:creator>mxq</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Sep 2008 15:56:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/09/cftc-investigating-whether-big-traders-lied-about-oil-inventories/#comment-14117</guid>
		<description>Yves has, more importantly , pointed out that the possibility of manipulation is merely a function of the opaque/obfuscatory state of the information discovery process.  (not inclusive, but namely: &lt;a HREF=&quot;http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/08/deutsche-oil-demand-forecasts-overshoot.html&quot; REL=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;, &lt;a HREF=&quot;http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/07/robert-mabro-disagrees-with-matt.html&quot; REL=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;,  &lt;a HREF=&quot;http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/06/our-article-on-oil-supplies-is-up-at.html&quot; REL=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;, &lt;a HREF=&quot;http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/06/are-you-sure-saudis-cant-pump-more-oil.html&quot; REL=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;and here&lt;/a&gt;).&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Markets are supposed to diffuse this sort of thing...ironically, they are probably contributing to this cluster f.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yves has, more importantly , pointed out that the possibility of manipulation is merely a function of the opaque/obfuscatory state of the information discovery process.  (not inclusive, but namely: <a HREF="http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/08/deutsche-oil-demand-forecasts-overshoot.html" REL="nofollow">here</a>, <a HREF="http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/07/robert-mabro-disagrees-with-matt.html" REL="nofollow">here</a>,  <a HREF="http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/06/our-article-on-oil-supplies-is-up-at.html" REL="nofollow">here</a>, <a HREF="http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/06/are-you-sure-saudis-cant-pump-more-oil.html" REL="nofollow">and here</a>).</p>
<p>Markets are supposed to diffuse this sort of thing&#8230;ironically, they are probably contributing to this cluster f.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: a</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/09/cftc-investigating-whether-big-traders.html#comment-14116</link>
		<dc:creator>a</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Sep 2008 15:54:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/09/cftc-investigating-whether-big-traders-lied-about-oil-inventories/#comment-14116</guid>
		<description>&quot;I don&#039;t understand the congrats on speculation.&quot;  &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;I look at the graph of the price of oil, and I say speculative bubble.  You may differ, but that&#039;s my honest (unbiased) opinion.  Unbiased, in the sense I had no money on either horse and was honestly unsure at the time when Yves was making the call.  Now maybe I&#039;ll retract that in two weeks if the price of oil shoots back to 140, but that&#039;s my honest opinion (and I&#039;ll emphasize *opinion*) today.  &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;On the other hand, Krugman&#039;s argument against speculation depended on the premise that inventories were tight.  If inventories weren&#039;t tight but just misreported, his argument would seem to fall down.  Or am I missing something?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I don&#8217;t understand the congrats on speculation.&#8221;  </p>
<p>I look at the graph of the price of oil, and I say speculative bubble.  You may differ, but that&#8217;s my honest (unbiased) opinion.  Unbiased, in the sense I had no money on either horse and was honestly unsure at the time when Yves was making the call.  Now maybe I&#8217;ll retract that in two weeks if the price of oil shoots back to 140, but that&#8217;s my honest opinion (and I&#8217;ll emphasize *opinion*) today.  </p>
<p>On the other hand, Krugman&#8217;s argument against speculation depended on the premise that inventories were tight.  If inventories weren&#8217;t tight but just misreported, his argument would seem to fall down.  Or am I missing something?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/09/cftc-investigating-whether-big-traders.html#comment-14113</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Sep 2008 15:40:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/09/cftc-investigating-whether-big-traders-lied-about-oil-inventories/#comment-14113</guid>
		<description>It should be fun to see the CFTC finally go after BP.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;British Petroleum own most of the delivery market storage (Cushing).  They have been manipulating that market for years.  &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;The Government has known about it since they investigated BP for propane price fixing.  &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;The problem?  BP has been pushing the prices down to get crude cheaper to sell it at higher prices later and get more money for storing crude.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It should be fun to see the CFTC finally go after BP.</p>
<p>British Petroleum own most of the delivery market storage (Cushing).  They have been manipulating that market for years.  </p>
<p>The Government has known about it since they investigated BP for propane price fixing.  </p>
<p>The problem?  BP has been pushing the prices down to get crude cheaper to sell it at higher prices later and get more money for storing crude.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Freude Bud</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/09/cftc-investigating-whether-big-traders.html#comment-14112</link>
		<dc:creator>Freude Bud</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Sep 2008 15:25:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/09/cftc-investigating-whether-big-traders-lied-about-oil-inventories/#comment-14112</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t understand the congrats on speculation.  The folks who report the numbers on inventories and shipping would be classified as &quot;commercials,&quot; not &quot;non-commercials,&quot; or &quot;speculators.&quot;  It is one thing to say that there are actors who attempted to manipulate the market and another to say that &quot;speculation&quot; is the cause.  Clearly, &quot;speculation&quot; isn&#039;t the cause being investigated by the CFTC.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;People who look down on regulators always end up crying for their help.  To wit: the entire financial industry today.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t understand the congrats on speculation.  The folks who report the numbers on inventories and shipping would be classified as &#8220;commercials,&#8221; not &#8220;non-commercials,&#8221; or &#8220;speculators.&#8221;  It is one thing to say that there are actors who attempted to manipulate the market and another to say that &#8220;speculation&#8221; is the cause.  Clearly, &#8220;speculation&#8221; isn&#8217;t the cause being investigated by the CFTC.</p>
<p>People who look down on regulators always end up crying for their help.  To wit: the entire financial industry today.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/09/cftc-investigating-whether-big-traders.html#comment-14111</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Sep 2008 15:10:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/09/cftc-investigating-whether-big-traders-lied-about-oil-inventories/#comment-14111</guid>
		<description>My daughter tells me that philosophy is more of a science than economics, and all though that makes me cough and wheeze and laugh hysterically, I think she has a point!  Nonetheless, I think most sciences are very open to retrospective analysis.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My daughter tells me that philosophy is more of a science than economics, and all though that makes me cough and wheeze and laugh hysterically, I think she has a point!  Nonetheless, I think most sciences are very open to retrospective analysis.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Richmond Rambler</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/09/cftc-investigating-whether-big-traders.html#comment-14109</link>
		<dc:creator>Richmond Rambler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Sep 2008 14:44:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/09/cftc-investigating-whether-big-traders-lied-about-oil-inventories/#comment-14109</guid>
		<description>Scarce resources:  oil, truth, time.  The volatile combination of all three confused economists such as Krugman and many others.  Kudos, Yves, for the subtle, accurate commentary.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Scarce resources:  oil, truth, time.  The volatile combination of all three confused economists such as Krugman and many others.  Kudos, Yves, for the subtle, accurate commentary.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
