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	<title>Comments on: Freddie, Fannie Credit Default Swap Woes for Insurers, Hedge Funds</title>
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	<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/09/freddie-fannie-credit-default-swap-woes.html</link>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/09/freddie-fannie-credit-default-swap-woes.html#comment-14932</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Sep 2008 00:13:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>to clarify cds trader&#039;s comment on his pnl: say you are flat as he were- the pv of your trades are not only discounted at the risky rate, but also the likelihood of the cash streams continuing into the future (the risky curve). as cds spreads widen, the probably of default increases, the possibility of future cash flows decreases and your MTM, in his case, falls appropriately.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>to clarify cds trader&#8217;s comment on his pnl: say you are flat as he were- the pv of your trades are not only discounted at the risky rate, but also the likelihood of the cash streams continuing into the future (the risky curve). as cds spreads widen, the probably of default increases, the possibility of future cash flows decreases and your MTM, in his case, falls appropriately.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/09/freddie-fannie-credit-default-swap-woes.html#comment-14761</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Sep 2008 15:07:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>FRE/FNM recovery is priced near par based on CTD.  Think FT is confusing what dealers charging as fee to unwind trades before the auction / settlement.  Dealers were charging about 5bps at first but now around 2bps.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;The trader that has to reverse he gains is not a common occurrence on desks.  Any reasonable credit trader for the last year at least has been closing trades via tear-ups/unwinds and not offsetting trades due to c/p risk.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;In the end, aside from docs/back office will be no big deal unless LEH files.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>FRE/FNM recovery is priced near par based on CTD.  Think FT is confusing what dealers charging as fee to unwind trades before the auction / settlement.  Dealers were charging about 5bps at first but now around 2bps.</p>
<p>The trader that has to reverse he gains is not a common occurrence on desks.  Any reasonable credit trader for the last year at least has been closing trades via tear-ups/unwinds and not offsetting trades due to c/p risk.</p>
<p>In the end, aside from docs/back office will be no big deal unless LEH files.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt Dubuque</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/09/freddie-fannie-credit-default-swap-woes.html#comment-14760</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt Dubuque</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Sep 2008 15:04:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Leave it to the FT!  It is SUCH a better paper than the WSJ and NYT it isn&#039;t even funny.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;I imagine this is the incredibly attractive and extraordinarily comprehensive Ms. Van Duyn who authored this?&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;My, my, she is really on top of things.  She&#039;s been on this since the beginning.  Her videos are regularly at ft.com.  sharp dresser too!&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;I&#039;m reminded of the quote a few years back by the editor in chief of Asahi Shinbun, the most important financial newspaper in Tokyo.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;He said THE major problem facing capitalism is that the derivatives market was operating in a world completely separate from the &quot;real&quot; economy.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;When you think of 480 TRILLION in notional derivatives value and the Clinton administration SCROUNGING around for a pathetic 200 million for childhood vaccinations and this begins to come into focus.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Looks like the derivatives world is starting to &quot;RECOUPLE&quot; with the real economic world.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Matt Dubuque</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Leave it to the FT!  It is SUCH a better paper than the WSJ and NYT it isn&#8217;t even funny.</p>
<p>I imagine this is the incredibly attractive and extraordinarily comprehensive Ms. Van Duyn who authored this?</p>
<p>My, my, she is really on top of things.  She&#8217;s been on this since the beginning.  Her videos are regularly at ft.com.  sharp dresser too!</p>
<p>I&#8217;m reminded of the quote a few years back by the editor in chief of Asahi Shinbun, the most important financial newspaper in Tokyo.</p>
<p>He said THE major problem facing capitalism is that the derivatives market was operating in a world completely separate from the &#8220;real&#8221; economy.</p>
<p>When you think of 480 TRILLION in notional derivatives value and the Clinton administration SCROUNGING around for a pathetic 200 million for childhood vaccinations and this begins to come into focus.</p>
<p>Looks like the derivatives world is starting to &#8220;RECOUPLE&#8221; with the real economic world.</p>
<p>Matt Dubuque</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/09/freddie-fannie-credit-default-swap-woes.html#comment-14738</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Sep 2008 11:42:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>cdstrader is correct ... but the credit hedge funds are well aware of this risk &amp; don&#039;t trade that way (unless they have to). Maybe the market makers will get stuck with it, but they&#039;re more likely to be flat than directional trading.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Rather than entering into a new offsetting contract to produce a net MTM, you&#039;d unwind or novate the original contract. &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;This means you&#039;d get your MTM paid out in cash on unwind date, and you wouldn&#039;t face the jump to default risk on your P&amp;L.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>cdstrader is correct &#8230; but the credit hedge funds are well aware of this risk &amp; don&#39;t trade that way (unless they have to). Maybe the market makers will get stuck with it, but they&#39;re more likely to be flat than directional trading.</p>
<p>Rather than entering into a new offsetting contract to produce a net MTM, you&#39;d unwind or novate the original contract. </p>
<p>This means you&#39;d get your MTM paid out in cash on unwind date, and you wouldn&#39;t face the jump to default risk on your P&amp;L.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/09/freddie-fannie-credit-default-swap-woes.html#comment-14735</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Sep 2008 10:08:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I just want to understand the actual mechanics of this process and whether it has any bearing on money supply or capital calculations.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Ok, say the purchaser of a $100mm CDS was Joe Pension fund who held $100mm in FRE bonds, matched maturity. &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Joe Pension now takes his FRE bonds out of hock, repoed somewhere, and presents it and that more valuable piece of paper to Dick iBank who wrote the contract. Dick iBank takes the bonds, repos them at the Fed for cash to give that plus 5% to Joe Pension? Is that what is going to happen?&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;And if so, then what does Joe Pension do with the cash? Buys Treasuries? Buys FRE/FNM debt? And if so, what does this mean for Dick iBank&#039;s capital calculation? Does he suddenly need more capital as a result of the haircutted repo and newly acquired bond position?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just want to understand the actual mechanics of this process and whether it has any bearing on money supply or capital calculations.</p>
<p>Ok, say the purchaser of a $100mm CDS was Joe Pension fund who held $100mm in FRE bonds, matched maturity. </p>
<p>Joe Pension now takes his FRE bonds out of hock, repoed somewhere, and presents it and that more valuable piece of paper to Dick iBank who wrote the contract. Dick iBank takes the bonds, repos them at the Fed for cash to give that plus 5% to Joe Pension? Is that what is going to happen?</p>
<p>And if so, then what does Joe Pension do with the cash? Buys Treasuries? Buys FRE/FNM debt? And if so, what does this mean for Dick iBank&#8217;s capital calculation? Does he suddenly need more capital as a result of the haircutted repo and newly acquired bond position?</p>
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		<title>By: Ginger Yellow</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/09/freddie-fannie-credit-default-swap-woes.html#comment-14734</link>
		<dc:creator>Ginger Yellow</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Sep 2008 10:05:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>The FT story does seem to be off base. I&#039;ve got a research report published yestereday by Michael Hampden-Turner in front of me, and it says that index-implied recovery values are 97%. Furthermore, he mentions that the cheapest to deliver bonds have been rallying for obvious reasons, which will surely push recoveries up. I&#039;ve no idea where the FT is getting its figure from.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The FT story does seem to be off base. I&#8217;ve got a research report published yestereday by Michael Hampden-Turner in front of me, and it says that index-implied recovery values are 97%. Furthermore, he mentions that the cheapest to deliver bonds have been rallying for obvious reasons, which will surely push recoveries up. I&#8217;ve no idea where the FT is getting its figure from.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/09/freddie-fannie-credit-default-swap-woes.html#comment-14733</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Sep 2008 09:15:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>whoa. that hedgie&#039;s p&amp;l computation is mind boggling! no wonder the financial system is in trouble. &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;tell me, if he were to buy, say 5yr FRE BONDS rather than the CDS&#039;s. Is he booking all the coupon payments for the next 5 years, upfront-- but to his slight credit--present valued?! &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Ditto to Jeremy&#039;s thoughts. It just sounds like the foundation for a huge ponzi scheme! why wouldn&#039;t he do this a million times over in a year and why even bother waiting for a spread margin of 2%? surely if he is manufacturing profits like that, it&#039;s in his best interest to do it as quickly as possible before anyone catches on to the scheme.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>whoa. that hedgie&#39;s p&amp;l computation is mind boggling! no wonder the financial system is in trouble. </p>
<p>tell me, if he were to buy, say 5yr FRE BONDS rather than the CDS&#39;s. Is he booking all the coupon payments for the next 5 years, upfront&#8211; but to his slight credit&#8211;present valued?! </p>
<p>Ditto to Jeremy&#39;s thoughts. It just sounds like the foundation for a huge ponzi scheme! why wouldn&#39;t he do this a million times over in a year and why even bother waiting for a spread margin of 2%? surely if he is manufacturing profits like that, it&#39;s in his best interest to do it as quickly as possible before anyone catches on to the scheme.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/09/freddie-fannie-credit-default-swap-woes.html#comment-14732</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Sep 2008 09:13:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Does this low payout high number stress illustrate the bigger problems that will occur with a larger payout issue - or if the government had not stepped in this could have caused a major wipeout</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Does this low payout high number stress illustrate the bigger problems that will occur with a larger payout issue &#8211; or if the government had not stepped in this could have caused a major wipeout</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/09/freddie-fannie-credit-default-swap-woes.html#comment-14730</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Sep 2008 08:10:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>The way traders calculate their pnl is by taking net present value of their position and comparing it to yesterday&#039;s npv. So there&#039;s nothing wrong with accounting for all future flows from this trade. &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;I just don&#039;t see why he is so irritated - surely he must have been aware of this risk on this position. Or did he think he was making risk-free profit?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The way traders calculate their pnl is by taking net present value of their position and comparing it to yesterday&#8217;s npv. So there&#8217;s nothing wrong with accounting for all future flows from this trade. </p>
<p>I just don&#8217;t see why he is so irritated &#8211; surely he must have been aware of this risk on this position. Or did he think he was making risk-free profit?</p>
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		<title>By: a</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/09/freddie-fannie-credit-default-swap-woes.html#comment-14728</link>
		<dc:creator>a</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Sep 2008 07:33:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Jeremy - that&#039;s mark to market.  The two CDSs have a market value based on the rates, and you&#039;re supposed to mark them to market, which produces the profit.  If the trader took all the profit between the two rates upfront, I imagine (but I have a good imagination and these are not my specialty so I could be making a blatant error) he was being unrealistic about the mark to market, because the possibility of a credit event was greater than 0, and this would have diminished the value of one and increased the value of the other.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jeremy &#8211; that&#8217;s mark to market.  The two CDSs have a market value based on the rates, and you&#8217;re supposed to mark them to market, which produces the profit.  If the trader took all the profit between the two rates upfront, I imagine (but I have a good imagination and these are not my specialty so I could be making a blatant error) he was being unrealistic about the mark to market, because the possibility of a credit event was greater than 0, and this would have diminished the value of one and increased the value of the other.</p>
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