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	<title>Comments on: EU Leaders Agree to Guarantee Bank Borrowings, Prevent Failures (Updated: Inject Capital Too)</title>
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		<title>By: thomas j</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/10/eu-leaders-agree-to-guarantee-bank.html#comment-21179</link>
		<dc:creator>thomas j</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Oct 2008 02:09:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/10/eu-leaders-agree-to-guarantee-bank-borrowings-prevent-failures-updated-inject-capital-too/#comment-21179</guid>
		<description>Just another shot of Novocaine for the patient who suddenly woke up in excruciating pain during the organ harvesting procedure.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just another shot of Novocaine for the patient who suddenly woke up in excruciating pain during the organ harvesting procedure.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/10/eu-leaders-agree-to-guarantee-bank.html#comment-21150</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Oct 2008 23:25:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/10/eu-leaders-agree-to-guarantee-bank-borrowings-prevent-failures-updated-inject-capital-too/#comment-21150</guid>
		<description>Here&#039;s a link to the text of the Euro document&lt;br/&gt;http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/text-euro-zone-nations-rescue-plan/story.aspx?guid={2DF0E7A6-A2AD-489C-AAD8-63F574DBA58C}&lt;br/&gt;(hope it works)&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Paragraph 8 is on the loan guarantees. They are available to foreign outfits and subsidiaries of foreign outfits operating in Europe provided certain conditions are met.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;May be some would see that as an incentive then, from a purely market type of standpoint, to move funds into Euro-land.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here&#8217;s a link to the text of the Euro document<br /><a href="http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/text-euro-zone-nations-rescue-plan/story.aspx?guid=" rel="nofollow">http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/text-euro-zone-nations-rescue-plan/story.aspx?guid=</a>{2DF0E7A6-A2AD-489C-AAD8-63F574DBA58C}<br />(hope it works)</p>
<p>Paragraph 8 is on the loan guarantees. They are available to foreign outfits and subsidiaries of foreign outfits operating in Europe provided certain conditions are met.</p>
<p>May be some would see that as an incentive then, from a purely market type of standpoint, to move funds into Euro-land.</p>
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		<title>By: S</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/10/eu-leaders-agree-to-guarantee-bank.html#comment-21137</link>
		<dc:creator>S</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Oct 2008 21:58:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/10/eu-leaders-agree-to-guarantee-bank-borrowings-prevent-failures-updated-inject-capital-too/#comment-21137</guid>
		<description>agree with poster that this is one of solvency and sovereign risk ultimitly. The Chinese denied over the weekend they were looking at a $200 billion US injection to sure up confidence in the US investments. Everyone is focused on euro and US banks and their problems, but the US is only as good as its sovereign lenders, albiet to the floight from equity will raise the appetite for $ denom treasury. The recent editorials in Moscow and China ripping the US fiscal practices is telling of how they feel about the current BWII regime. It is ending. What comes next is the real tell. Bernanke is p-laying with other peoples money - read sovereigns  - every time he hits print. The current cxrisis may be about staving off collapse but beyond the battle haze lies the looming wquestion of how the dollar can possibly survive. When the US is condiered the lebder of last resort, everyone should stand up and take notice. The US has nothing to lend. The wolrd looks like it is going to increasingly demand some sort of hybrid fiat and the US, the world&#039;s greatest beneficiary of BWII, is about to lose the freeom to frank.getting banks to lend is really a sideshow at this point. The portfolios are so loaded down with bad debt, that it will take years to work through. The US is simply taking the garbage ionto its balance sheet and assuming that banks or hoping maybe they go back to the irresponsible lending that got us here. go figure.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>agree with poster that this is one of solvency and sovereign risk ultimitly. The Chinese denied over the weekend they were looking at a $200 billion US injection to sure up confidence in the US investments. Everyone is focused on euro and US banks and their problems, but the US is only as good as its sovereign lenders, albiet to the floight from equity will raise the appetite for $ denom treasury. The recent editorials in Moscow and China ripping the US fiscal practices is telling of how they feel about the current BWII regime. It is ending. What comes next is the real tell. Bernanke is p-laying with other peoples money &#8211; read sovereigns  &#8211; every time he hits print. The current cxrisis may be about staving off collapse but beyond the battle haze lies the looming wquestion of how the dollar can possibly survive. When the US is condiered the lebder of last resort, everyone should stand up and take notice. The US has nothing to lend. The wolrd looks like it is going to increasingly demand some sort of hybrid fiat and the US, the world&#8217;s greatest beneficiary of BWII, is about to lose the freeom to frank.getting banks to lend is really a sideshow at this point. The portfolios are so loaded down with bad debt, that it will take years to work through. The US is simply taking the garbage ionto its balance sheet and assuming that banks or hoping maybe they go back to the irresponsible lending that got us here. go figure.</p>
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		<title>By: Abbott_Of_Iona</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/10/eu-leaders-agree-to-guarantee-bank.html#comment-21136</link>
		<dc:creator>Abbott_Of_Iona</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Oct 2008 21:53:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/10/eu-leaders-agree-to-guarantee-bank-borrowings-prevent-failures-updated-inject-capital-too/#comment-21136</guid>
		<description>DD said... &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;“Some have said this Crisis is one of confidence. Others have said it&#039;s one of solvency.”&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Can I try something here?&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Say there are seven banks A,B,C,D,E,F &amp; G.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;A,B,C,D &amp; E are (relatively) happy to lend to each other, but they don’t know that one of their number will lend to F or G, which they know (amongst themselves) are insolvent.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Will they now lend to F &amp; G or will they (even with the guarantee) require an additional risk premium.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;What happens to F &amp; G if, even with the guarantee, they can’t borrow.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Instant bankruptcy?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>DD said&#8230; </p>
<p>“Some have said this Crisis is one of confidence. Others have said it&#39;s one of solvency.”</p>
<p>Can I try something here?</p>
<p>Say there are seven banks A,B,C,D,E,F &amp; G.</p>
<p>A,B,C,D &amp; E are (relatively) happy to lend to each other, but they don’t know that one of their number will lend to F or G, which they know (amongst themselves) are insolvent.</p>
<p>Will they now lend to F &amp; G or will they (even with the guarantee) require an additional risk premium.</p>
<p>What happens to F &amp; G if, even with the guarantee, they can’t borrow.</p>
<p>Instant bankruptcy?</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/10/eu-leaders-agree-to-guarantee-bank.html#comment-21133</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Oct 2008 21:39:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/10/eu-leaders-agree-to-guarantee-bank-borrowings-prevent-failures-updated-inject-capital-too/#comment-21133</guid>
		<description>Somewhat off-topic.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;In case you have missed.  Paul Volker is interviewed by Charlie Rose: &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;http://video.google.com/videosearch?hl=en&amp;q=rose%2C%20volker&amp;um=1&amp;ie=UTF-8&amp;sa=N&amp;tab=wv#</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Somewhat off-topic.</p>
<p>In case you have missed.  Paul Volker is interviewed by Charlie Rose: </p>
<p><a href="http://video.google.com/videosearch?hl=en&amp;q=rose%2C%20volker&amp;um=1&amp;ie=UTF-8&amp;sa=N&amp;tab=wv#" rel="nofollow">http://video.google.com/videosearch?hl=en&amp;q=rose%2C%20volker&amp;um=1&amp;ie=UTF-8&amp;sa=N&amp;tab=wv#</a></p>
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		<title>By: DD</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/10/eu-leaders-agree-to-guarantee-bank.html#comment-21132</link>
		<dc:creator>DD</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Oct 2008 21:37:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/10/eu-leaders-agree-to-guarantee-bank-borrowings-prevent-failures-updated-inject-capital-too/#comment-21132</guid>
		<description>Some have said this Crisis is one of confidence.  Others have said it&#039;s one of solvency.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;I guess we are about to find out who was right.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;I shudder to think what happens next...if this does not spur more lending, as the message straight from the banks themselves will be:&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;We&#039;re Insolvent!&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;The Market may hate uncertainty---but in this case, it may hate certainty even more.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;I think this guarantee was an obvious solution; therefore, I think the reasons why they were hesitant to adopt it is also obvious.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;I don&#039;t think this is going to end well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Some have said this Crisis is one of confidence.  Others have said it&#8217;s one of solvency.</p>
<p>I guess we are about to find out who was right.</p>
<p>I shudder to think what happens next&#8230;if this does not spur more lending, as the message straight from the banks themselves will be:</p>
<p>We&#8217;re Insolvent!</p>
<p>The Market may hate uncertainty&#8212;but in this case, it may hate certainty even more.</p>
<p>I think this guarantee was an obvious solution; therefore, I think the reasons why they were hesitant to adopt it is also obvious.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think this is going to end well.</p>
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		<title>By: dlr</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/10/eu-leaders-agree-to-guarantee-bank.html#comment-21128</link>
		<dc:creator>dlr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Oct 2008 21:10:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/10/eu-leaders-agree-to-guarantee-bank-borrowings-prevent-failures-updated-inject-capital-too/#comment-21128</guid>
		<description>Amateur here, but the Bloomberg article said the governments would be buying preferred shares, that means there won&#039;t be any dilution of the common shares, right?  So, no penalties at all for the bank shareholders, just a free gift, lots of money and debt guarantees going forward.  Plus, implied guarantees for all of the existing bond holders, since the governments are pledging they won&#039;t let the banks they invest in fail.  What a rip off for the taxpayer.  &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;This is completely unjust.  I would insist on massive dilution of the existing shareholders, before the capital injection by the governments.  Plus all senior management removed from office. This is just a total sweetheart deal for the exact parties that caused the entire problem in the first place.  A massive act of injustice.   &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;I hope every politician that has anything to do with this is promptly voted out of office.  Poor people being forced to bail out the rich and the powerful.  And don&#039;t tell me it was necessary to &#039;save the economy&#039;, they could have saved the economy just fine without  saving the shareholders and bank executives.  These guys need to feel more pain, or it will be the same thing again 10 years from now.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Amateur here, but the Bloomberg article said the governments would be buying preferred shares, that means there won&#8217;t be any dilution of the common shares, right?  So, no penalties at all for the bank shareholders, just a free gift, lots of money and debt guarantees going forward.  Plus, implied guarantees for all of the existing bond holders, since the governments are pledging they won&#8217;t let the banks they invest in fail.  What a rip off for the taxpayer.  </p>
<p>This is completely unjust.  I would insist on massive dilution of the existing shareholders, before the capital injection by the governments.  Plus all senior management removed from office. This is just a total sweetheart deal for the exact parties that caused the entire problem in the first place.  A massive act of injustice.   </p>
<p>I hope every politician that has anything to do with this is promptly voted out of office.  Poor people being forced to bail out the rich and the powerful.  And don&#8217;t tell me it was necessary to &#8217;save the economy&#8217;, they could have saved the economy just fine without  saving the shareholders and bank executives.  These guys need to feel more pain, or it will be the same thing again 10 years from now.</p>
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		<title>By: Don</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/10/eu-leaders-agree-to-guarantee-bank.html#comment-21124</link>
		<dc:creator>Don</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Oct 2008 20:58:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/10/eu-leaders-agree-to-guarantee-bank-borrowings-prevent-failures-updated-inject-capital-too/#comment-21124</guid>
		<description>Does the multinational plan(s) really change anything, other than who lends/injects?  Is this not simply a shift from CBs as life support vehicles to the public/taxpayers?  &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;The intent is to re-capitalize by injecting public funds into private banks.  But doesn&#039;t this take a while to materialize?  Does the time for this re-capitalization really exist?  &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;How does this change anything in the short term, other than its potential effects in beefing up confidence?  Is it not obvious that we are passed that stage where attempts to beef up confidence are effective.  &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;In other words, is it not obvious that the problem is no longer one of confidence (or distrust in terms of intrabank lending)?  Is it not apparent by now that what matters is that which underlies the lack of confidence (and the psychology of distrust)?  Is it not true that by now what really matters is that which is the real, material force driving developments . . . not simply mental configurations of confidence or lack thereof?&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Attempting to beef up confidence, it appears the shift is to &quot;guarantees&quot;.  Bank deposits guaranteed; intrabank lending guaranteed.   So it has become a matter of governments as lenders of last resort, or only resort, because they are the only ones big enough to guarantee.  &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;So . . . is the next issue one of sovereign solvency?&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Certainly, everything I&#039;m saying here is overly simplified.  No doubt, I am missing what this is all about, for it just has to be much more substantive than it appears to these sore eyes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Does the multinational plan(s) really change anything, other than who lends/injects?  Is this not simply a shift from CBs as life support vehicles to the public/taxpayers?  </p>
<p>The intent is to re-capitalize by injecting public funds into private banks.  But doesn&#8217;t this take a while to materialize?  Does the time for this re-capitalization really exist?  </p>
<p>How does this change anything in the short term, other than its potential effects in beefing up confidence?  Is it not obvious that we are passed that stage where attempts to beef up confidence are effective.  </p>
<p>In other words, is it not obvious that the problem is no longer one of confidence (or distrust in terms of intrabank lending)?  Is it not apparent by now that what matters is that which underlies the lack of confidence (and the psychology of distrust)?  Is it not true that by now what really matters is that which is the real, material force driving developments . . . not simply mental configurations of confidence or lack thereof?</p>
<p>Attempting to beef up confidence, it appears the shift is to &#8220;guarantees&#8221;.  Bank deposits guaranteed; intrabank lending guaranteed.   So it has become a matter of governments as lenders of last resort, or only resort, because they are the only ones big enough to guarantee.  </p>
<p>So . . . is the next issue one of sovereign solvency?</p>
<p>Certainly, everything I&#8217;m saying here is overly simplified.  No doubt, I am missing what this is all about, for it just has to be much more substantive than it appears to these sore eyes.</p>
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		<title>By: toto</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/10/eu-leaders-agree-to-guarantee-bank.html#comment-21121</link>
		<dc:creator>toto</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Oct 2008 20:44:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/10/eu-leaders-agree-to-guarantee-bank-borrowings-prevent-failures-updated-inject-capital-too/#comment-21121</guid>
		<description>finally found the communiqué :&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;&quot;Under the current exceptional circumstances, financial and non-financial institutions should be allowed as necessary to value their assets consistently with risk of default assumptions rather than immediate market value which, in illiquid markets may no longer be appropriate.&quot;&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;http://tinyurl.com/3kwvsj&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;refering to ue2008.fr</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>finally found the communiqué :</p>
<p>&#8220;Under the current exceptional circumstances, financial and non-financial institutions should be allowed as necessary to value their assets consistently with risk of default assumptions rather than immediate market value which, in illiquid markets may no longer be appropriate.&#8221;</p>
<p><a href="http://tinyurl.com/3kwvsj" rel="nofollow">http://tinyurl.com/3kwvsj</a></p>
<p>refering to ue2008.fr</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/10/eu-leaders-agree-to-guarantee-bank.html#comment-21119</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Oct 2008 20:41:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/10/eu-leaders-agree-to-guarantee-bank-borrowings-prevent-failures-updated-inject-capital-too/#comment-21119</guid>
		<description>If anyone wants an extra antidote, here is a performance of mad, mad world by the son of fired SEC attorney Gary Aguirre.  &lt;a HREF=&quot;http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4N3N1MlvVc4&quot; REL=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Mad World Video&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If anyone wants an extra antidote, here is a performance of mad, mad world by the son of fired SEC attorney Gary Aguirre.  <a HREF="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4N3N1MlvVc4" REL="nofollow">Mad World Video</a></p>
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