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	<title>Comments on: US to Protect Mitsubishi Investment in Morgan Stanley</title>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/10/us-to-protect-mitsubishi-investment-in.html#comment-21291</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Oct 2008 17:26:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Treasury will PROTECT conglomerate Mitsubishi&#039;s investment.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Treasury will PROTECT Wall Street&#039;s Morgan Stanley from default.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;But I thought the Treasury was against PROTECTionism!&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Oh, that must be only for protecting the interests of the average American citizen.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Treasury will PROTECT conglomerate Mitsubishi&#8217;s investment.</p>
<p>Treasury will PROTECT Wall Street&#8217;s Morgan Stanley from default.</p>
<p>But I thought the Treasury was against PROTECTionism!</p>
<p>Oh, that must be only for protecting the interests of the average American citizen.</p>
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		<title>By: Aaron Krowne</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/10/us-to-protect-mitsubishi-investment-in.html#comment-21258</link>
		<dc:creator>Aaron Krowne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Oct 2008 14:19:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Anon 7:44am:&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;When you count the various &quot;social security&quot; taxes in the same pool of Federal income taxes to which you are most likely referring, the picture of the overall burden shifts considerably to the middle and the bottom half.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;And from what I&#039;ve seen, not much in the way of services is provided at all.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;But that all misses the point.  People are angry because bankers (and the government) have massively dislocated the economy, creating needless losses and turmoil.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;And contrary to what you imply the middle to upper middle class is quite angry at what this has done to their asset investments.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anon 7:44am:</p>
<p>When you count the various &#8220;social security&#8221; taxes in the same pool of Federal income taxes to which you are most likely referring, the picture of the overall burden shifts considerably to the middle and the bottom half.</p>
<p>And from what I&#8217;ve seen, not much in the way of services is provided at all.</p>
<p>But that all misses the point.  People are angry because bankers (and the government) have massively dislocated the economy, creating needless losses and turmoil.</p>
<p>And contrary to what you imply the middle to upper middle class is quite angry at what this has done to their asset investments.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/10/us-to-protect-mitsubishi-investment-in.html#comment-21238</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Oct 2008 11:44:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>NOTE TO YVES: I hope you delete both this post and Juan&#039;s, in the name of blog civility.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Juan,&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Yeahhhhh, go get them!  Burn those bankers!  It&#039;s time the people who have no stake in this argument, i.e. the bottom half of earners who pay 5% of all taxes and use gov&#039;t services like locusts, to RISE UP and punish the top 5% who pay 50% of all taxes, because that top 5% might be getting tax $$ approaching a fraction of the amount they have paid over the years to support just about everyone else.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;How dare they?  How dare they ask for help?  That&#039;s YOUR money, Juan!  You contributed something, right?  5%!  Thanks for keeping the engine of America running, pal, and thanks for showing your true colors.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Seriously.  Who are the people showing up on this blog all of a sudden?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>NOTE TO YVES: I hope you delete both this post and Juan&#8217;s, in the name of blog civility.</p>
<p>Juan,</p>
<p>Yeahhhhh, go get them!  Burn those bankers!  It&#8217;s time the people who have no stake in this argument, i.e. the bottom half of earners who pay 5% of all taxes and use gov&#8217;t services like locusts, to RISE UP and punish the top 5% who pay 50% of all taxes, because that top 5% might be getting tax $$ approaching a fraction of the amount they have paid over the years to support just about everyone else.</p>
<p>How dare they?  How dare they ask for help?  That&#8217;s YOUR money, Juan!  You contributed something, right?  5%!  Thanks for keeping the engine of America running, pal, and thanks for showing your true colors.</p>
<p>Seriously.  Who are the people showing up on this blog all of a sudden?</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/10/us-to-protect-mitsubishi-investment-in.html#comment-21236</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Oct 2008 10:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/10/us-to-protect-mitsubishi-investment-in-morgan-stanley/#comment-21236</guid>
		<description>&quot;Mitsubishi and the Japanese government pressed the Treasury Department over the weekend to guarantee that if the United States were to inject money into Morgan Stanley at a later time — a step the Treasury has ruled out for now — the move would not wipe out Mitsubishi’s investment.&quot; -- NYT&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;When you and I go &quot;leveraged bottom fishing,&quot; it&#039;s always with the real risk of getting blown out.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;But when Hank&#039;s pals go bottom fishing, they get a free &quot;Paulson put.&quot;&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;I deplore this descent into fascism -- using the word not in the common pejorative sense of &quot;right wing&quot; or &quot;jackbooted&quot; (though they apply), but rather in the functional sense of &quot;state-directed, state-dominated economy.&quot;&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Anon 1:04 AM who &quot;wants MS as a taxpayer&quot; is going to find that all those &quot;excellent&quot; 160-IQ ambitious people will not enjoy working for the Japanese or the fedgov, and will soon drift away -- leaving the taxpayers to fund the handsome salaries of the drones who stay.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;The US financial sector is still grossly bloated. There were already plenty of money-center banks. Why do we need two newly-created ones called GS and MS? Toss &#039;em into the street and let the people rip &#039;em apart with crowbars and bare teeth. This is not gonna end till some iBankers get lynched.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;-- Juan Falcone</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Mitsubishi and the Japanese government pressed the Treasury Department over the weekend to guarantee that if the United States were to inject money into Morgan Stanley at a later time — a step the Treasury has ruled out for now — the move would not wipe out Mitsubishi’s investment.&#8221; &#8212; NYT</p>
<p>When you and I go &#8220;leveraged bottom fishing,&#8221; it&#8217;s always with the real risk of getting blown out.</p>
<p>But when Hank&#8217;s pals go bottom fishing, they get a free &#8220;Paulson put.&#8221;</p>
<p>I deplore this descent into fascism &#8212; using the word not in the common pejorative sense of &#8220;right wing&#8221; or &#8220;jackbooted&#8221; (though they apply), but rather in the functional sense of &#8220;state-directed, state-dominated economy.&#8221;</p>
<p>Anon 1:04 AM who &#8220;wants MS as a taxpayer&#8221; is going to find that all those &#8220;excellent&#8221; 160-IQ ambitious people will not enjoy working for the Japanese or the fedgov, and will soon drift away &#8212; leaving the taxpayers to fund the handsome salaries of the drones who stay.</p>
<p>The US financial sector is still grossly bloated. There were already plenty of money-center banks. Why do we need two newly-created ones called GS and MS? Toss &#8216;em into the street and let the people rip &#8216;em apart with crowbars and bare teeth. This is not gonna end till some iBankers get lynched.</p>
<p>&#8211; Juan Falcone</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/10/us-to-protect-mitsubishi-investment-in.html#comment-21229</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Oct 2008 08:05:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/10/us-to-protect-mitsubishi-investment-in-morgan-stanley/#comment-21229</guid>
		<description>As I said on &lt;a HREF=&quot;http://danielwahl.blogspot.com/2008/10/treasury-offers-protection-in-morgan.html&quot; REL=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;my blog &lt;/a&gt;, it appears that there&#039;s some kind of insane competition to repeat the exact same policy errors that led to this financial crisis, only this time on an even grander scale.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As I said on <a HREF="http://danielwahl.blogspot.com/2008/10/treasury-offers-protection-in-morgan.html" REL="nofollow">my blog </a>, it appears that there&#8217;s some kind of insane competition to repeat the exact same policy errors that led to this financial crisis, only this time on an even grander scale.</p>
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		<title>By: doc holiday</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/10/us-to-protect-mitsubishi-investment-in.html#comment-21208</link>
		<dc:creator>doc holiday</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Oct 2008 05:24:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Re:  &quot;But the difference between a guarantee and &quot;protection&quot; appears to be semantic, so one has to wonder about the careful use of terminology.&quot;&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;See:  Paranoid personality disorder is characterized by a distrust of others and a constant suspicion that people around you have sinister motives.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Hear:  Radiohead - Paranoid Android (on Jools Holland, 1997)&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_mMzOQpe0I&amp;NR=1</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re:  &quot;But the difference between a guarantee and &quot;protection&quot; appears to be semantic, so one has to wonder about the careful use of terminology.&quot;</p>
<p>See:  Paranoid personality disorder is characterized by a distrust of others and a constant suspicion that people around you have sinister motives.</p>
<p>Hear:  Radiohead &#8211; Paranoid Android (on Jools Holland, 1997)</p>
<p><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_mMzOQpe0I&amp;NR=1" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_mMzOQpe0I&amp;NR=1</a></p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/10/us-to-protect-mitsubishi-investment-in.html#comment-21200</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Oct 2008 05:09:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>One minor niggle: &quot;semantics&quot; means &quot;meaning&quot;.  (Ask any Computer Science major; the corresponding word you are looking for is &quot;syntactics&quot;.)  The all-too-common phrase &quot;it&#039;s just semantics&quot; is not what the writers want to say.  What happened to the phrase &quot;a distinction without a difference&quot;?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One minor niggle: &#8220;semantics&#8221; means &#8220;meaning&#8221;.  (Ask any Computer Science major; the corresponding word you are looking for is &#8220;syntactics&#8221;.)  The all-too-common phrase &#8220;it&#8217;s just semantics&#8221; is not what the writers want to say.  What happened to the phrase &#8220;a distinction without a difference&#8221;?</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/10/us-to-protect-mitsubishi-investment-in.html#comment-21197</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Oct 2008 05:04:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>There is value in these companies, the same value that has always been predominant in investment banks: the human capital.  GS first, and MS second, were the preeminent investment banks in the world, filled with excellent people.  The same can be said of some hedge funds that are blowing up, probably, but nevertheless these people can be a big value and Mitsubishi knows it.  They are people Mitsubishi could not have dreamed of hiring before.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;If Mitsu doesn&#039;t like existing terms, they should withdraw, US government should inject capital, and the US taxpayer will benefit as those employees drive profits in the choppy markets to come.  At these prices, MS is a screaming deal and, as a taxpayer, I want it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is value in these companies, the same value that has always been predominant in investment banks: the human capital.  GS first, and MS second, were the preeminent investment banks in the world, filled with excellent people.  The same can be said of some hedge funds that are blowing up, probably, but nevertheless these people can be a big value and Mitsubishi knows it.  They are people Mitsubishi could not have dreamed of hiring before.</p>
<p>If Mitsu doesn&#8217;t like existing terms, they should withdraw, US government should inject capital, and the US taxpayer will benefit as those employees drive profits in the choppy markets to come.  At these prices, MS is a screaming deal and, as a taxpayer, I want it.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/10/us-to-protect-mitsubishi-investment-in.html#comment-21192</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Oct 2008 04:39:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Yves -- Your blog has been so consistently fantastic that it is essential reading for me day and night.  I check it almost every waking hour.  But I still disagree with you on the the preferred stock issue.  There is no value in these companies.  The hole in LEH&#039;s balance sheet was enough evidence for me (not to mention that this is a belief I have had for at least nine months now).  In my opinion, the government should completely wipe out common, preferred and some of of the bondholders and then invest capital to keep the institutions alive.  The government&#039;s going to be a backstop anyway, right?  There&#039;s no other option now, right?  Every single country seems to be doing it with every major financial institution.  I don&#039;t care about Mitsubishi&#039;s money.  If we wait and wipe out all the &quot;gamblers&quot; (OK, pejorative, but still...), then the government has a better chance to see its money back.  I still agree with 99% of the content of your posts.  Seriously.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yves &#8212; Your blog has been so consistently fantastic that it is essential reading for me day and night.  I check it almost every waking hour.  But I still disagree with you on the the preferred stock issue.  There is no value in these companies.  The hole in LEH&#8217;s balance sheet was enough evidence for me (not to mention that this is a belief I have had for at least nine months now).  In my opinion, the government should completely wipe out common, preferred and some of of the bondholders and then invest capital to keep the institutions alive.  The government&#8217;s going to be a backstop anyway, right?  There&#8217;s no other option now, right?  Every single country seems to be doing it with every major financial institution.  I don&#8217;t care about Mitsubishi&#8217;s money.  If we wait and wipe out all the &#8220;gamblers&#8221; (OK, pejorative, but still&#8230;), then the government has a better chance to see its money back.  I still agree with 99% of the content of your posts.  Seriously.</p>
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		<title>By: FairEconomist</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/10/us-to-protect-mitsubishi-investment-in.html#comment-21189</link>
		<dc:creator>FairEconomist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Oct 2008 04:25:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Obviously everybody knows MS is likely to need major help from the Feds in spite of public pronouncements. Mitsubishi is being very reasonable in demanding its intervention include that fact.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;I don&#039;t think it general the Feds could avoid hitting the pre-existing preferred with an intervention. Truthfully the GSEs were insolvent long-term and the Feds did them a favor. Of course, once the Feds intervene they eventually want to draw in private capital and that will require new deals, just as with Mitsubishi here.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Obviously everybody knows MS is likely to need major help from the Feds in spite of public pronouncements. Mitsubishi is being very reasonable in demanding its intervention include that fact.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think it general the Feds could avoid hitting the pre-existing preferred with an intervention. Truthfully the GSEs were insolvent long-term and the Feds did them a favor. Of course, once the Feds intervene they eventually want to draw in private capital and that will require new deals, just as with Mitsubishi here.</p>
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