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	<title>Comments on: &quot;Why Oil Prices Must Fall&quot;</title>
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		<title>By: arawak</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/10/why-oil-prices-must-fall.html#comment-20341</link>
		<dc:creator>arawak</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Oct 2008 14:40:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I don&#039;t think the EIA is a good source for oil predictions.  Their blue skies scenario is simply not supported by the evidence on the ground.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;As a previous poster noted, the price of oil at any moment is not the story.  Supply, demand, and *production cost* are the stories.  &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;We&#039;ll never run out of oil.. it will just take more energy and expense to extract than it is worth.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;From TOD:&lt;br/&gt;9/17 OIL FIRMS PRODUCING AT A LOSS DUE TO LOW CRUDE PRICES&lt;br/&gt;&quot;For the first time in the history of the Russian oil industry, a remarkable threshold has been achieved — Russian oil producers are transferring everything they get from customers for crude oil exports to the budget,“ (Moscow Times –UBS Analyst)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think the EIA is a good source for oil predictions.  Their blue skies scenario is simply not supported by the evidence on the ground.</p>
<p>As a previous poster noted, the price of oil at any moment is not the story.  Supply, demand, and *production cost* are the stories.  </p>
<p>We&#8217;ll never run out of oil.. it will just take more energy and expense to extract than it is worth.</p>
<p>From TOD:<br />9/17 OIL FIRMS PRODUCING AT A LOSS DUE TO LOW CRUDE PRICES<br />&#8220;For the first time in the history of the Russian oil industry, a remarkable threshold has been achieved — Russian oil producers are transferring everything they get from customers for crude oil exports to the budget,“ (Moscow Times –UBS Analyst)</p>
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		<title>By: Alan</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/10/why-oil-prices-must-fall.html#comment-20335</link>
		<dc:creator>Alan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Oct 2008 14:24:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>The analysis is simply admitting the obvious.  The supply and demand explanation for a price that rose from $60 to $147 in a year is only slightly less flaky than one which applies the same explanation for a price that has dropped from $147 to $87 in slightly over three months.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Combine that with the other commodities that have risen and fallen in sync.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Now pity commodity producers, including American farmers, auto companies and airlines who made investment decisions on the assurance of a new and higher base price.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Which is not to say that a low oil price is the planet&#039;s friend.  Just that the commodities bubble appears on charts.  I suppose if it were in the shape of a mushroom cloud it could be more obvious, but I&#039;m not certain even then that the obvious would be admitted.  &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;The fact is this this was a bubble caused by chasing a rising asset price, &lt;b&gt;&lt;i&gt;not &lt;/i&gt;&lt;/b&gt;by some new and unforeseen explosion of demand or constriction of supply.  Likely the inflation and the collapse were also aided by speculators.  (One wishes he could visit the trading floor at Goldman Sachs and interview a couple of the ex-Enron traders there.)  I still recommend shorting oil companies.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The analysis is simply admitting the obvious.  The supply and demand explanation for a price that rose from $60 to $147 in a year is only slightly less flaky than one which applies the same explanation for a price that has dropped from $147 to $87 in slightly over three months.</p>
<p>Combine that with the other commodities that have risen and fallen in sync.</p>
<p>Now pity commodity producers, including American farmers, auto companies and airlines who made investment decisions on the assurance of a new and higher base price.</p>
<p>Which is not to say that a low oil price is the planet&#8217;s friend.  Just that the commodities bubble appears on charts.  I suppose if it were in the shape of a mushroom cloud it could be more obvious, but I&#8217;m not certain even then that the obvious would be admitted.  </p>
<p>The fact is this this was a bubble caused by chasing a rising asset price, <b><i>not </i></b>by some new and unforeseen explosion of demand or constriction of supply.  Likely the inflation and the collapse were also aided by speculators.  (One wishes he could visit the trading floor at Goldman Sachs and interview a couple of the ex-Enron traders there.)  I still recommend shorting oil companies.</p>
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		<title>By: alan von altendorf</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/10/why-oil-prices-must-fall.html#comment-20299</link>
		<dc:creator>alan von altendorf</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Oct 2008 08:16:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>It&#039;s important, valid, pertinent to highlight and consider Merrill Lynch and Morgan Stanley&#039;s role as oil brokers. I don&#039;t have the figures to hand, and I&#039;m not going to spend all day doing a spreadsheet, so treat it as gossip if you like. With the brokers broken and banks frozen, no one is trading except the Seven Sisters which are now Four Orphans and a Halfwit, thanks to merger mania to consolidate nonexistent reserves.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;I don&#039;t think it matters what spot price is from day to day. It could be $50 or $100 or $200. Much more important is light sweet production (not sour, not nat gas, not condensate, not heavy) and delivery to US ports. Price means nothing. Inventory is everything.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s important, valid, pertinent to highlight and consider Merrill Lynch and Morgan Stanley&#8217;s role as oil brokers. I don&#8217;t have the figures to hand, and I&#8217;m not going to spend all day doing a spreadsheet, so treat it as gossip if you like. With the brokers broken and banks frozen, no one is trading except the Seven Sisters which are now Four Orphans and a Halfwit, thanks to merger mania to consolidate nonexistent reserves.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think it matters what spot price is from day to day. It could be $50 or $100 or $200. Much more important is light sweet production (not sour, not nat gas, not condensate, not heavy) and delivery to US ports. Price means nothing. Inventory is everything.</p>
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		<title>By: Juan</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/10/why-oil-prices-must-fall.html#comment-20261</link>
		<dc:creator>Juan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Oct 2008 04:06:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Nate, are you claiming that energy companies&#039; EROEI is a primary cause for &quot;delays and cancellations of projects.&quot;? If so, a very narrow view.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;And hey, while you&#039;re here, could you please set straight those above who seem to believe production has not been on a rise.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nate, are you claiming that energy companies&#8217; EROEI is a primary cause for &#8220;delays and cancellations of projects.&#8221;? If so, a very narrow view.</p>
<p>And hey, while you&#8217;re here, could you please set straight those above who seem to believe production has not been on a rise.</p>
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		<title>By: nate</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/10/why-oil-prices-must-fall.html#comment-20245</link>
		<dc:creator>nate</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Oct 2008 02:57:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/10/why-oil-prices-must-fall/#comment-20245</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;You&#039;re a hard-core blogger posting under &quot;anonymous?&quot; Do you mind identifying yourself?&lt;br/&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;My name is Nate Hagens. I&#039;m a phd student at University of Vermonts Gund Institute for Ecological Economics - after working at Salomon Brothers, Lehman Brothers and running my own fixed income hedge fund since MBA school.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;I am hardly a &#039;hard-core blogger&#039;. This was my first comment on this website, which I have just started to read.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;The 2 posts I referenced, (now with hyperlinks) are:&lt;br/&gt;&lt;a HREF=&quot;http://www.theoildrum.com/node/4621&quot; REL=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Presidential Energy Debate Fact Check&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;and&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;&lt;a HREF=&quot;http://www.theoildrum.com/node/4562&quot; REL=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;The Marginal BTU - Return of the Red Queen&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Of relevance to Yves&#039; current post are:&lt;br/&gt;&lt;a HREF=&quot;http://www.theoildrum.com/node/4483&quot; REL=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Hedge Funds, Hurricanes, and Energy Markets&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br/&gt;and&lt;br/&gt;&lt;a HREF=&quot;http://www.theoildrum.com/node/3412&quot; REL=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;At $100 Oil What the Scientist Can Say to the Investor&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br/&gt;and&lt;br/&gt;&lt;a HREF=&quot;http://www.theoildrum.com/node/4100&quot; REL=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Peak Oil and Reflexivity and Peak Oil&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;For those with a spare hour or two, here are two bigger picture essays:&lt;br/&gt;&lt;a HREF=&quot;http://www.theoildrum.com/node/3386&quot; REL=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;I&#039;m Human, I&#039;m American, and I&#039;m Addicted to Oil&lt;/a&gt; (on evolutionary  origins of habituation to stimuli and competition for resources)&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;and&lt;br/&gt;&lt;a HREF=&quot;http://www.theoildrum.com/node/3178&quot; REL=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Peak Oil - Believe it Or Not&lt;/a&gt; (on cognitive biases underpinning our belief systems)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>You&#8217;re a hard-core blogger posting under &#8220;anonymous?&#8221; Do you mind identifying yourself?<br /></i></p>
<p>My name is Nate Hagens. I&#8217;m a phd student at University of Vermonts Gund Institute for Ecological Economics &#8211; after working at Salomon Brothers, Lehman Brothers and running my own fixed income hedge fund since MBA school.</p>
<p>I am hardly a &#8216;hard-core blogger&#8217;. This was my first comment on this website, which I have just started to read.</p>
<p>The 2 posts I referenced, (now with hyperlinks) are:<br /><a HREF="http://www.theoildrum.com/node/4621" REL="nofollow">Presidential Energy Debate Fact Check</a></p>
<p>and</p>
<p><a HREF="http://www.theoildrum.com/node/4562" REL="nofollow">The Marginal BTU &#8211; Return of the Red Queen</a></p>
<p>Of relevance to Yves&#8217; current post are:<br /><a HREF="http://www.theoildrum.com/node/4483" REL="nofollow">Hedge Funds, Hurricanes, and Energy Markets</a><br />and<br /><a HREF="http://www.theoildrum.com/node/3412" REL="nofollow">At $100 Oil What the Scientist Can Say to the Investor</a><br />and<br /><a HREF="http://www.theoildrum.com/node/4100" REL="nofollow">Peak Oil and Reflexivity and Peak Oil</a></p>
<p>For those with a spare hour or two, here are two bigger picture essays:<br /><a HREF="http://www.theoildrum.com/node/3386" REL="nofollow">I&#8217;m Human, I&#8217;m American, and I&#8217;m Addicted to Oil</a> (on evolutionary  origins of habituation to stimuli and competition for resources)</p>
<p>and<br /><a HREF="http://www.theoildrum.com/node/3178" REL="nofollow">Peak Oil &#8211; Believe it Or Not</a> (on cognitive biases underpinning our belief systems)</p>
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		<title>By: mxq</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/10/why-oil-prices-must-fall.html#comment-20242</link>
		<dc:creator>mxq</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Oct 2008 02:41:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>anon @ 10:19: &quot;I&#039;m an editor of theoildrum.com&quot;&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;You&#039;re a hard-core blogger posting under &quot;anonymous?&quot; Do you mind identifying yourself?&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Not to mention you provided a hack-job of an http web address instead of a nice, neat html hyperlink to your (supposed) own website? &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;I&#039;ve seen stranger things, but I call BS.  You&#039;ve jumped the shark as well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>anon @ 10:19: &#8220;I&#8217;m an editor of theoildrum.com&#8221;</p>
<p>You&#8217;re a hard-core blogger posting under &#8220;anonymous?&#8221; Do you mind identifying yourself?</p>
<p>Not to mention you provided a hack-job of an http web address instead of a nice, neat html hyperlink to your (supposed) own website? </p>
<p>I&#8217;ve seen stranger things, but I call BS.  You&#8217;ve jumped the shark as well.</p>
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		<title>By: aaron</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/10/why-oil-prices-must-fall.html#comment-20241</link>
		<dc:creator>aaron</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Oct 2008 02:33:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I think it&#039;s clear to everyone by now that the oil run-up was in part generated by speculation (i.e. was a bubble).  That, plus the long term elasticity of demand, is why prices are dropping now, but I don&#039;t expect the peddlers of gloom to admit that they were wrong on this count.  This is just another case of how politics always informs economic discussions, even on the more grounded left (ie Krugman&#039;s reasoning about high oil prices which ignored the ways in which investors are sometimes irrational)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think it&#8217;s clear to everyone by now that the oil run-up was in part generated by speculation (i.e. was a bubble).  That, plus the long term elasticity of demand, is why prices are dropping now, but I don&#8217;t expect the peddlers of gloom to admit that they were wrong on this count.  This is just another case of how politics always informs economic discussions, even on the more grounded left (ie Krugman&#8217;s reasoning about high oil prices which ignored the ways in which investors are sometimes irrational)</p>
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		<title>By: mxq</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/10/why-oil-prices-must-fall.html#comment-20240</link>
		<dc:creator>mxq</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Oct 2008 02:24:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>re: molecool: &lt;i&gt;&quot;Actually the break/even point for most oil producers is the $60 mark, so I must disagree&quot;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;That&#039;s categorically incorrect &lt;a HREF=&quot;http://www.eia.doe.gov/neic/infosheets/crudeproduction.html&quot; REL=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;according to the EIA&lt;/a&gt;.  The ME can pump the stuff for $5.26...average production costs for non-us countries is less than $30.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Molecool...if you&#039;re gonna throw numbers out there, please cite something, because, as of now, you&#039;ve jumped the shark.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;And btw, Gheit is far from a &quot;trend follower,&quot; he&#039;s testified, on multiple occasions, for over a year now (see &lt;a HREF=&quot;http://energycommerce.house.gov/cmte_mtgs/110-oi-hrg.062308.Gheit-testimony.pdf&quot; REL=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;, &lt;a HREF=&quot;http://energy.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Hearings.Testimony&amp;Hearing_ID=ddf1c91e-e96c-4642-93cc-89aeb6a9169e&amp;Witness_ID=8bd790af-8997-4341-8804-2875b40856b5&quot; REL=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;, &lt;a HREF=&quot;http://energy.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Hearings.Testimony&amp;Hearing_ID=492aa9fc-9622-2cfa-00af-8a091f7d187e&amp;Witness_ID=962ac111-7675-40cc-9686-41a448723890&quot; REL=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;and here&lt;/a&gt;), about the vagaries of excessive speculation and how fundamentals only justify $60.  &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;I think everyone agrees (including Gheit) that specs are absolutely necessary, but only when used in moderation (just like credit).  And for anybody wondering, the past year has &lt;b&gt;not&lt;/b&gt; been a portrait speculation in moderation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>re: molecool: <i>&#8220;Actually the break/even point for most oil producers is the $60 mark, so I must disagree&#8221;</i></p>
<p>That&#8217;s categorically incorrect <a HREF="http://www.eia.doe.gov/neic/infosheets/crudeproduction.html" REL="nofollow">according to the EIA</a>.  The ME can pump the stuff for $5.26&#8230;average production costs for non-us countries is less than $30.</p>
<p>Molecool&#8230;if you&#8217;re gonna throw numbers out there, please cite something, because, as of now, you&#8217;ve jumped the shark.</p>
<p>And btw, Gheit is far from a &#8220;trend follower,&#8221; he&#8217;s testified, on multiple occasions, for over a year now (see <a HREF="http://energycommerce.house.gov/cmte_mtgs/110-oi-hrg.062308.Gheit-testimony.pdf" REL="nofollow">here</a>, <a HREF="http://energy.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Hearings.Testimony&#038;Hearing_ID=ddf1c91e-e96c-4642-93cc-89aeb6a9169e&#038;Witness_ID=8bd790af-8997-4341-8804-2875b40856b5" REL="nofollow">here</a>, <a HREF="http://energy.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Hearings.Testimony&#038;Hearing_ID=492aa9fc-9622-2cfa-00af-8a091f7d187e&#038;Witness_ID=962ac111-7675-40cc-9686-41a448723890" REL="nofollow">and here</a>), about the vagaries of excessive speculation and how fundamentals only justify $60.  </p>
<p>I think everyone agrees (including Gheit) that specs are absolutely necessary, but only when used in moderation (just like credit).  And for anybody wondering, the past year has <b>not</b> been a portrait speculation in moderation.</p>
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		<title>By: Dean</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/10/why-oil-prices-must-fall.html#comment-20239</link>
		<dc:creator>Dean</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Oct 2008 02:22:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I was exposed to Martenson, courtesy of one of Yves&#039; bloggers. I am returning the favor:&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;http://www.chrismartenson.com/peak_oil</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was exposed to Martenson, courtesy of one of Yves&#8217; bloggers. I am returning the favor:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.chrismartenson.com/peak_oil" rel="nofollow">http://www.chrismartenson.com/peak_oil</a></p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/10/why-oil-prices-must-fall.html#comment-20237</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Oct 2008 02:19:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I&#039;m an editor of theoildrum.com and I assure you I am not &#039;bat-poop crazy&#039;. (though I suppose if I were, I would assure you just the same).&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Tonight we have a Presidential Energy Debate Fact Check:&lt;br/&gt;http://www.theoildrum.com/node/4621&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;on the veracity of the claims on offshore drillings impact on oil prices and energy independence. (The sources are all the bat-poop crazy people at the Energy Information Administration.)&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;I have oft written about the magnitude of financial assets dwarfing the energy markets. The hedge funds leaving the industry now, both from lack of returns, liquidations and fear of further rule changes are causing mother of all forced sells.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Two comments directed at the Oppenheimer report:&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;1)From a trading perspective, markets usually don&#039;t reverse until sentiment of Wall St firms economists has shifted 180 degrees. The more reports we hear about $60 oil, the sooner oil is going back up (and the sooner we get a better long term price signal for renewable infrastructure)&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;2)Oppenheimer report focused on demand. Not only is global depletion rate 4.5%. Not only is net energy declining (i.e. energy companies using more oil, natural gas and electricity to procure the same amount of energy as before). Not only are the commodity prices well below the cost of the marginal unit (and approaching that of the average unit),:&lt;br/&gt;http://www.theoildrum.com/node/4562&lt;br/&gt; which is resulting in delays and cancellations of projects. But we now have a credit crisis that is causing firms to reduce capex, postpone new capacity, delay substitution of renewables, and pose serious business risk for any company that can&#039;t fund their business through operations. &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;So, when economy was strong, we were in a race between technology and depletion. Now we are in a race between depletion and credit contraction. We&#039;re currently in the liminal space where demand IS lower than supply - but many factors suggest that won&#039;t last for long.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;But I ramble - I need to go take my medications before I lose sanity again..</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m an editor of theoildrum.com and I assure you I am not &#8216;bat-poop crazy&#8217;. (though I suppose if I were, I would assure you just the same).</p>
<p>Tonight we have a Presidential Energy Debate Fact Check:<br /><a href="http://www.theoildrum.com/node/4621" rel="nofollow">http://www.theoildrum.com/node/4621</a></p>
<p>on the veracity of the claims on offshore drillings impact on oil prices and energy independence. (The sources are all the bat-poop crazy people at the Energy Information Administration.)</p>
<p>I have oft written about the magnitude of financial assets dwarfing the energy markets. The hedge funds leaving the industry now, both from lack of returns, liquidations and fear of further rule changes are causing mother of all forced sells.</p>
<p>Two comments directed at the Oppenheimer report:</p>
<p>1)From a trading perspective, markets usually don&#8217;t reverse until sentiment of Wall St firms economists has shifted 180 degrees. The more reports we hear about $60 oil, the sooner oil is going back up (and the sooner we get a better long term price signal for renewable infrastructure)</p>
<p>2)Oppenheimer report focused on demand. Not only is global depletion rate 4.5%. Not only is net energy declining (i.e. energy companies using more oil, natural gas and electricity to procure the same amount of energy as before). Not only are the commodity prices well below the cost of the marginal unit (and approaching that of the average unit),:<br /><a href="http://www.theoildrum.com/node/4562" rel="nofollow">http://www.theoildrum.com/node/4562</a><br /> which is resulting in delays and cancellations of projects. But we now have a credit crisis that is causing firms to reduce capex, postpone new capacity, delay substitution of renewables, and pose serious business risk for any company that can&#8217;t fund their business through operations. </p>
<p>So, when economy was strong, we were in a race between technology and depletion. Now we are in a race between depletion and credit contraction. We&#8217;re currently in the liminal space where demand IS lower than supply &#8211; but many factors suggest that won&#8217;t last for long.</p>
<p>But I ramble &#8211; I need to go take my medications before I lose sanity again..</p>
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