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	<title>Comments on: Brad Setser Begs to Differ With Nouriel Roubini on China</title>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/11/brad-setser-begs-to-differ-with-nouriel.html#comment-24816</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Nov 2008 18:34:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>It&#039;s worth considering that ALL problems of underemployment and attendant social unrest can be readily solved by simply paying unemployed workers with freshly printed yuan to dig holes in the ground and then fill them back up again. When faced with deflation, a government can pursue policy like this with impunity. So I wouldn&#039;t bet on a social explosion in China anytime soon, unless you are certain that the Chinese leadership is ideologically opposed to this sort of crude Keynesianism.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s worth considering that ALL problems of underemployment and attendant social unrest can be readily solved by simply paying unemployed workers with freshly printed yuan to dig holes in the ground and then fill them back up again. When faced with deflation, a government can pursue policy like this with impunity. So I wouldn&#8217;t bet on a social explosion in China anytime soon, unless you are certain that the Chinese leadership is ideologically opposed to this sort of crude Keynesianism.</p>
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		<title>By: larryang</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/11/brad-setser-begs-to-differ-with-nouriel.html#comment-24697</link>
		<dc:creator>larryang</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Nov 2008 19:07:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>What kind of effect would China liberalizing their household registration system have on residential construction?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What kind of effect would China liberalizing their household registration system have on residential construction?</p>
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		<title>By: russell1200</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/11/brad-setser-begs-to-differ-with-nouriel.html#comment-24644</link>
		<dc:creator>russell1200</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Nov 2008 10:36:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>The last few recessions within the US have been relatively lighter because much of our industrial capacity was swapped out for service industries so that the old inventory overcapacity issues were dampened.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;The percentage swings in output for primary producers is proportionally large as an economy moves through its business cycles/bubbles.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Construction is a poster boy industry for illiquid supply meeting liquid demand, with even small downward swings in demand causing huge shake ups within the industry. It of course is also an industry where the inventory part of the business cycle can hit hard.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;To the extent that both the industrial and construction portions of China&#039;s economy make up a large portion of their economy, you would expect to see some very deep swings regardless of where the drop in demand comes from.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The last few recessions within the US have been relatively lighter because much of our industrial capacity was swapped out for service industries so that the old inventory overcapacity issues were dampened.</p>
<p>The percentage swings in output for primary producers is proportionally large as an economy moves through its business cycles/bubbles.</p>
<p>Construction is a poster boy industry for illiquid supply meeting liquid demand, with even small downward swings in demand causing huge shake ups within the industry. It of course is also an industry where the inventory part of the business cycle can hit hard.</p>
<p>To the extent that both the industrial and construction portions of China&#8217;s economy make up a large portion of their economy, you would expect to see some very deep swings regardless of where the drop in demand comes from.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/11/brad-setser-begs-to-differ-with-nouriel.html#comment-24628</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Nov 2008 04:54:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Has Setser or anyone on this board actually visited the countryside in China?&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;There&#039;s a simple reason why none of the migrant workers want to go back to the countrywide.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;There&#039;s no friggin food there!  As in starvation level no food, not go back and go onto food stamps US style the cupboards are bare.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Also don&#039;t forget much of the better farm-land was in the South which has now been turned into factories.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Petty crime and social unrest is skyrocketing in the cities due to lack of work and lack of social services.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;The CCP is extremely aware of the issues with lack of basic services, high cost of basic necessities and how easily things can spiral out of control.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;The Chinese can simmer for a long time, but when they blow it can be very bad and very bloody.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Has Setser or anyone on this board actually visited the countryside in China?</p>
<p>There&#8217;s a simple reason why none of the migrant workers want to go back to the countrywide.</p>
<p>There&#8217;s no friggin food there!  As in starvation level no food, not go back and go onto food stamps US style the cupboards are bare.</p>
<p>Also don&#8217;t forget much of the better farm-land was in the South which has now been turned into factories.</p>
<p>Petty crime and social unrest is skyrocketing in the cities due to lack of work and lack of social services.</p>
<p>The CCP is extremely aware of the issues with lack of basic services, high cost of basic necessities and how easily things can spiral out of control.</p>
<p>The Chinese can simmer for a long time, but when they blow it can be very bad and very bloody.</p>
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		<title>By: Juan</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/11/brad-setser-begs-to-differ-with-nouriel.html#comment-24624</link>
		<dc:creator>Juan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Nov 2008 02:51:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Brad states: &lt;i&gt; &quot;If China shifted the basis of its growth, it might be able to generate more jobs even if the overall pace of growth changes.&quot;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;which, given the transnational restructuring of E. Asia, seriously begs questions of control and whether that nation can reverse its capital deepening, export hub course without greatly destabilizing the region and beyond. Of course, should this global recession be sufficiently intense and prolonged, the party-state may have little option,,,how could it ever have imagined otherwise.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;East Asia specialist Martin Hart-Landsberg and economist Paul Burkett&#039;s 2006 paper &lt;a HREF=&quot;http://www.lclark.edu/~marty/China%20Transnational%20Accumulation.pdf&quot; REL=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;China and the Dynamics of Transnational Accumulation: Causes and Consequences&lt;/a&gt; (PDF) provides some insight and yes, Richard, data into what has been a decidedly beyond-national development process.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Roubini is closer to correct.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brad states: <i> &#8220;If China shifted the basis of its growth, it might be able to generate more jobs even if the overall pace of growth changes.&#8221;</i></p>
<p>which, given the transnational restructuring of E. Asia, seriously begs questions of control and whether that nation can reverse its capital deepening, export hub course without greatly destabilizing the region and beyond. Of course, should this global recession be sufficiently intense and prolonged, the party-state may have little option,,,how could it ever have imagined otherwise.</p>
<p>East Asia specialist Martin Hart-Landsberg and economist Paul Burkett&#8217;s 2006 paper <a HREF="http://www.lclark.edu/~marty/China%20Transnational%20Accumulation.pdf" REL="nofollow">China and the Dynamics of Transnational Accumulation: Causes and Consequences</a> (PDF) provides some insight and yes, Richard, data into what has been a decidedly beyond-national development process.</p>
<p>Roubini is closer to correct.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/11/brad-setser-begs-to-differ-with-nouriel.html#comment-24609</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Nov 2008 23:22:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>China could have been a huge experiment in &quot;sustainable development&quot;. Their populace had the discipline to endure slow, thoughtful, change. But no. The same scumbags responsible for the coming mad max scenario in the US decided to finance China&#039;s metamorphosis into a huge slave plantation gulag pumping unnecessary plastic crap into containers bound for Seattle and Long Beach. Now what? Who&#039;s gonna finance our next bubble? Saudi Arabia? Hell, they should be demanding payment for oil in gold.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>China could have been a huge experiment in &#8220;sustainable development&#8221;. Their populace had the discipline to endure slow, thoughtful, change. But no. The same scumbags responsible for the coming mad max scenario in the US decided to finance China&#8217;s metamorphosis into a huge slave plantation gulag pumping unnecessary plastic crap into containers bound for Seattle and Long Beach. Now what? Who&#8217;s gonna finance our next bubble? Saudi Arabia? Hell, they should be demanding payment for oil in gold.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/11/brad-setser-begs-to-differ-with-nouriel.html#comment-24608</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Nov 2008 23:18:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>anonymous -- i think the right concept is value added in the export sector, or exports net of related components imports.   That isn&#039;t 40% -- but it is close to 20% in my viww.   More importantly, my strong view as that the value added in china&#039;s export sector is rising -- largely b/c electronics component production shifted to china.   you see this after 2004 -- rises in china&#039;s exports to the US and Europe were no longer associated with rising chinese imports from the rest of asia.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;the reference to net exports in my post is reference to the net contribution of exports to annual GDP growth -- which has been quite large absolutely over the past few years in china even if hasn&#039;t accounted for the majority of China&#039;s GDP growth.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Yves -- I wasn&#039;t really arguing against Nouriel so much as against the Economists&#039; argument that exports have played no role in Chnia&#039;s GDP growth (in which case, there is no reason to worry -- china can plug along just fine, as it doesn&#039;t rely on international banks for financing/ benefits from lower commodity prices).   My main different with Nouriel is one of tone rather than substance -- he wants to fit China&#039;s slump into his global hard landing meme; i preferred to steer clear of the term hard landing.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;bsetser</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>anonymous &#8212; i think the right concept is value added in the export sector, or exports net of related components imports.   That isn&#8217;t 40% &#8212; but it is close to 20% in my viww.   More importantly, my strong view as that the value added in china&#8217;s export sector is rising &#8212; largely b/c electronics component production shifted to china.   you see this after 2004 &#8212; rises in china&#8217;s exports to the US and Europe were no longer associated with rising chinese imports from the rest of asia.</p>
<p>the reference to net exports in my post is reference to the net contribution of exports to annual GDP growth &#8212; which has been quite large absolutely over the past few years in china even if hasn&#8217;t accounted for the majority of China&#8217;s GDP growth.</p>
<p>Yves &#8212; I wasn&#8217;t really arguing against Nouriel so much as against the Economists&#8217; argument that exports have played no role in Chnia&#8217;s GDP growth (in which case, there is no reason to worry &#8212; china can plug along just fine, as it doesn&#8217;t rely on international banks for financing/ benefits from lower commodity prices).   My main different with Nouriel is one of tone rather than substance &#8212; he wants to fit China&#8217;s slump into his global hard landing meme; i preferred to steer clear of the term hard landing.</p>
<p>bsetser</p>
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		<title>By: Bob_in_MA</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/11/brad-setser-begs-to-differ-with-nouriel.html#comment-24599</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob_in_MA</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Nov 2008 22:08:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I think the point about necessary job growth is that there are essentially 20million+ new workers each year because of working age population growth. These weren&#039;t all farmers moving to the city, they are twenty-somethings looking for a job.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the point about necessary job growth is that there are essentially 20million+ new workers each year because of working age population growth. These weren&#8217;t all farmers moving to the city, they are twenty-somethings looking for a job.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/11/brad-setser-begs-to-differ-with-nouriel.html#comment-24596</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Nov 2008 21:53:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Roubini is correct that the gross export is related to jobs.  When you keep a constant net export, lower gross export means fewer jobs.  That cannot be good.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;But Sester correctly mentioned that most of export value are actually import value.  It means that those jobs added a little value then re-export to US or EU.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Thus, when US and EU have a crisis and demand falls, those very low-value-added low paid jobs will difinitely lose.  The people would possibly go back to the countryside...if the CCP can maintain the stable situation during this process.  Those people will wait for another boom time to come out and work again...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Roubini is correct that the gross export is related to jobs.  When you keep a constant net export, lower gross export means fewer jobs.  That cannot be good.</p>
<p>But Sester correctly mentioned that most of export value are actually import value.  It means that those jobs added a little value then re-export to US or EU.</p>
<p>Thus, when US and EU have a crisis and demand falls, those very low-value-added low paid jobs will difinitely lose.  The people would possibly go back to the countryside&#8230;if the CCP can maintain the stable situation during this process.  Those people will wait for another boom time to come out and work again&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: zezowaty Zorro</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/11/brad-setser-begs-to-differ-with-nouriel.html#comment-24593</link>
		<dc:creator>zezowaty Zorro</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Nov 2008 20:45:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Brad Setser got strong point. There is a huge difference between &lt;b&gt;net&lt;/b&gt; export and &lt;b&gt;gross&lt;/b&gt; export, the same as between gross value and net value. As it happens Setser clearly shows, that more than half if not 3/4 of 40% GDP gross export is import cost (material etc.) and therefore net export made in China accounts for 10% of GDP, so compounded with central currency regime and comfortable savings cushion they are in no way heading toward a hard landing, as US of A is: no cushion, cosmic debt, oversupply, slumping demand.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brad Setser got strong point. There is a huge difference between <b>net</b> export and <b>gross</b> export, the same as between gross value and net value. As it happens Setser clearly shows, that more than half if not 3/4 of 40% GDP gross export is import cost (material etc.) and therefore net export made in China accounts for 10% of GDP, so compounded with central currency regime and comfortable savings cushion they are in no way heading toward a hard landing, as US of A is: no cushion, cosmic debt, oversupply, slumping demand.</p>
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