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	<title>Comments on: Citi Rescue Talks Underway</title>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/11/citi-rescue-talks-underway.html#comment-26717</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Nov 2008 02:16:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/11/citi-rescue-talks-underway/#comment-26717</guid>
		<description>Decided to double post this, as it puts a human face on the problem.&lt;br/&gt;Its from a friend in San Fran, who works as a tax consultant in his fathers firm and his dealing with Citibank inc, in regards to buying a house. &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;If Citibank goes under, I will laugh my ass off forever. &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;We just bought our house in September. The previous owner had two loans on the house and by the time we finished agreeing on the price, they were like 200K in the negative, so both of the note holders had to approve of the sale, because they were getting shorted. Their first loan was held by Citifinancial bank and the second loan was held by Citiresidential bank. The day AFTER we signed our FINAL documents, Citibank came up with a bogus charge of $6000 that they said was billed to them by an insurance company for the liability insurance during a time that the house was vacant for 9 months. They said they would void the entire contract and foreclose the house if we didn&#039;t pay for this. The insurance company that the bill came from was of course Citibank Insurance. My Realtor ended up eating this and is trying to sue them right now to get it back. The lamest part of the entire f***over was after they dropped this on us, they stopped answering the phone and faxes, or like 200 e-mails that they all sent them and went and hid under a rock. Citibank and all their companies are a complete bunch of douche bags. &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;I&#039;ll bet you anything that if they do go under, soon afterwords, we&#039;ll hear a story about how their top execs earned 20 million apiece for their wonderful work putting so many people out of work. &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Skippy</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Decided to double post this, as it puts a human face on the problem.<br />Its from a friend in San Fran, who works as a tax consultant in his fathers firm and his dealing with Citibank inc, in regards to buying a house. </p>
<p>If Citibank goes under, I will laugh my ass off forever. </p>
<p>We just bought our house in September. The previous owner had two loans on the house and by the time we finished agreeing on the price, they were like 200K in the negative, so both of the note holders had to approve of the sale, because they were getting shorted. Their first loan was held by Citifinancial bank and the second loan was held by Citiresidential bank. The day AFTER we signed our FINAL documents, Citibank came up with a bogus charge of $6000 that they said was billed to them by an insurance company for the liability insurance during a time that the house was vacant for 9 months. They said they would void the entire contract and foreclose the house if we didn&#8217;t pay for this. The insurance company that the bill came from was of course Citibank Insurance. My Realtor ended up eating this and is trying to sue them right now to get it back. The lamest part of the entire f***over was after they dropped this on us, they stopped answering the phone and faxes, or like 200 e-mails that they all sent them and went and hid under a rock. Citibank and all their companies are a complete bunch of douche bags. </p>
<p>I&#8217;ll bet you anything that if they do go under, soon afterwords, we&#8217;ll hear a story about how their top execs earned 20 million apiece for their wonderful work putting so many people out of work. </p>
<p>Skippy</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/11/citi-rescue-talks-underway.html#comment-26708</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Nov 2008 00:11:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/11/citi-rescue-talks-underway/#comment-26708</guid>
		<description>@doc holiday, Engineers? what engineers? Physics is no longer a required subject in that field and has not been so for years, computers have taking over that role. Engineers are no more than data input lackeys now days. All because the market needed more engineers than the system could pump out, only thing left to do was lower the standard. People with real expertise are expensive too. &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;I find this example the rule in all of business now. One person that has real expertise running an army of juvenile look at me types.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;On another point, the education  system has been running at over capacity for years now and like the useless durables now stock piling around the world, we now have a over supply of people coming the education system with debt to pay back and not even a job at star bucks to get along, till things get better. &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Skippy</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@doc holiday, Engineers? what engineers? Physics is no longer a required subject in that field and has not been so for years, computers have taking over that role. Engineers are no more than data input lackeys now days. All because the market needed more engineers than the system could pump out, only thing left to do was lower the standard. People with real expertise are expensive too. </p>
<p>I find this example the rule in all of business now. One person that has real expertise running an army of juvenile look at me types.</p>
<p>On another point, the education  system has been running at over capacity for years now and like the useless durables now stock piling around the world, we now have a over supply of people coming the education system with debt to pay back and not even a job at star bucks to get along, till things get better. </p>
<p>Skippy</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/11/citi-rescue-talks-underway.html#comment-26707</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Nov 2008 00:03:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/11/citi-rescue-talks-underway/#comment-26707</guid>
		<description>Citi got 25 Billion from the Tarp and they have a 25 Billion mkt cap.&lt;br/&gt;What a joke.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Citi got 25 Billion from the Tarp and they have a 25 Billion mkt cap.<br />What a joke.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/11/citi-rescue-talks-underway.html#comment-26704</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Nov 2008 23:56:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/11/citi-rescue-talks-underway/#comment-26704</guid>
		<description>Citi has 2 trillion in assets and a 25B mkt cap. The mkt says their leverage is 98 to 1. Robert Rubin, Sandy Weill et al. should be in prison. SIV&#039;s are Enron type vehicles. Sorbanes Oxly was passed as a result of Enron, making executives liable for untruthful financial statements. Let&#039;s see some charges.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Citi has 2 trillion in assets and a 25B mkt cap. The mkt says their leverage is 98 to 1. Robert Rubin, Sandy Weill et al. should be in prison. SIV&#8217;s are Enron type vehicles. Sorbanes Oxly was passed as a result of Enron, making executives liable for untruthful financial statements. Let&#8217;s see some charges.</p>
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		<title>By: luther</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/11/citi-rescue-talks-underway.html#comment-26699</link>
		<dc:creator>luther</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Nov 2008 22:03:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/11/citi-rescue-talks-underway/#comment-26699</guid>
		<description>if hempton&#039;s theory holds water (and i have long suspected that it does) some other things to consider on the citidramarama:&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;--&gt; the under-the-table tax law change that give WF the ability to pull the rug out from under the citi-wachovia deal&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;--&gt; &quot;Moreover, departing Wachovia Corp. executives will receive up to $225 million in &quot;golden parachutes&quot; from the Wells Fargo deal. They would have received none from the Citigroup Inc. merger. &quot;&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;http://www.tradingmarkets.com/.site/news/Stock%20News/1941447/&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;--&gt; wachovia&#039;s CEO Bob Steel was undersec for domestic finance until june 2008 and is an old GS guy under Paulson.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;--&gt; Sir Hank &#039;magnimously&#039; said last week he was not going to request release of the remaining $350B of TARP, even though he is most well aware of the problems at Citi.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;--&gt; this thurs, the USG asked 4 Arab nations for about $300B to help assist in curbing &#039;the global financial meltdown&#039;.  what for pray tell at this late date?&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;--&gt; of course, the well-known theory that Citi is the &#039;Saudi bank&#039;.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;could this whole play be a final &#039;quid pro quo&#039; between the bushies &amp; the sheiks?&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;stay tuned...same rat time...same rat channel...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>if hempton&#39;s theory holds water (and i have long suspected that it does) some other things to consider on the citidramarama:</p>
<p>&#8211;&gt; the under-the-table tax law change that give WF the ability to pull the rug out from under the citi-wachovia deal</p>
<p>&#8211;&gt; &quot;Moreover, departing Wachovia Corp. executives will receive up to $225 million in &quot;golden parachutes&quot; from the Wells Fargo deal. They would have received none from the Citigroup Inc. merger. &quot;</p>
<p><a href="http://www.tradingmarkets.com/.site/news/Stock%20News/1941447/" rel="nofollow">http://www.tradingmarkets.com/.site/news/Stock%20News/1941447/</a></p>
<p>&#8211;&gt; wachovia&#39;s CEO Bob Steel was undersec for domestic finance until june 2008 and is an old GS guy under Paulson.</p>
<p>&#8211;&gt; Sir Hank &#39;magnimously&#39; said last week he was not going to request release of the remaining $350B of TARP, even though he is most well aware of the problems at Citi.</p>
<p>&#8211;&gt; this thurs, the USG asked 4 Arab nations for about $300B to help assist in curbing &#39;the global financial meltdown&#39;.  what for pray tell at this late date?</p>
<p>&#8211;&gt; of course, the well-known theory that Citi is the &#39;Saudi bank&#39;.</p>
<p>could this whole play be a final &#39;quid pro quo&#39; between the bushies &amp; the sheiks?</p>
<p>stay tuned&#8230;same rat time&#8230;same rat channel&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: m donner</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/11/citi-rescue-talks-underway.html#comment-26689</link>
		<dc:creator>m donner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Nov 2008 20:17:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/11/citi-rescue-talks-underway/#comment-26689</guid>
		<description>Citi got 25B from the TARP program.  I wondered if the execs have a private jet, if they were grilled and had to come up with a detailed plan of going forward...to make sure they did not need more gov&#039;t/tax payer money later...if they were forced/encouraged to re-negotiate salaries and bennie with all their workers BEFORE  they got the money (show us the plan and we will show you the money)&lt;br/&gt;  i just cannot help but see a double standard here and worse...a wall st vs main street mentality at work.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Citi got 25B from the TARP program.  I wondered if the execs have a private jet, if they were grilled and had to come up with a detailed plan of going forward&#8230;to make sure they did not need more gov&#8217;t/tax payer money later&#8230;if they were forced/encouraged to re-negotiate salaries and bennie with all their workers BEFORE  they got the money (show us the plan and we will show you the money)<br />  i just cannot help but see a double standard here and worse&#8230;a wall st vs main street mentality at work.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/11/citi-rescue-talks-underway.html#comment-26686</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Nov 2008 20:12:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/11/citi-rescue-talks-underway/#comment-26686</guid>
		<description>Felix Salmon also mentioned Citi&#039;s &lt;a HREF=&quot;http://www.portfolio.com/views/blogs/market-movers/2008/11/14/citis-achilles-heel-foreign-depositors&quot; REL=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;vulnerability to a run on the bank by its foreign depositors&lt;/a&gt;, who aren&#039;t covered by FDIC.  It&#039;s hard to imagine who&#039;s big enough to comforably take over $554 billion of foreign deposits -- perhaps HSBC or a Chinese bank assisted by the Chinese government?&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;There is already a great deal of anger in Asia among retail investors and private banking clients who invested a lot of money in &lt;a HREF=&quot;http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&amp;sid=aBJ_0ULSgrjY&amp;refer=exclusive&quot; REL=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;structured notes linked to Lehman&lt;/a&gt; that became worthless.  If foreign depositors get burned again in an even bigger way by Citigroup, US financial products and companies might get the same reputation overseas as Chinese dairy products and toys did: toxic and contaminated.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Felix Salmon also mentioned Citi&#8217;s <a HREF="http://www.portfolio.com/views/blogs/market-movers/2008/11/14/citis-achilles-heel-foreign-depositors" REL="nofollow">vulnerability to a run on the bank by its foreign depositors</a>, who aren&#8217;t covered by FDIC.  It&#8217;s hard to imagine who&#8217;s big enough to comforably take over $554 billion of foreign deposits &#8212; perhaps HSBC or a Chinese bank assisted by the Chinese government?</p>
<p>There is already a great deal of anger in Asia among retail investors and private banking clients who invested a lot of money in <a HREF="http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&#038;sid=aBJ_0ULSgrjY&#038;refer=exclusive" REL="nofollow">structured notes linked to Lehman</a> that became worthless.  If foreign depositors get burned again in an even bigger way by Citigroup, US financial products and companies might get the same reputation overseas as Chinese dairy products and toys did: toxic and contaminated.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/11/citi-rescue-talks-underway.html#comment-26684</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Nov 2008 19:55:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/11/citi-rescue-talks-underway/#comment-26684</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;They argued that had Citigroup and Wachovia been allowed to merge “we wouldn’t be in this position,” one executive said.&lt;/i&gt;&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;To borrow &lt;a HREF=&quot;http://www.portfolio.com/views/blogs/market-movers/2008/11/21/who-will-take-over-citi&quot; REL=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;a phrase from Felix Salmon&lt;/a&gt;, you can&#039;t tie two rocks together and hope that they float.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>They argued that had Citigroup and Wachovia been allowed to merge “we wouldn’t be in this position,” one executive said.</i></p>
<p>To borrow <a HREF="http://www.portfolio.com/views/blogs/market-movers/2008/11/21/who-will-take-over-citi" REL="nofollow">a phrase from Felix Salmon</a>, you can&#8217;t tie two rocks together and hope that they float.</p>
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		<title>By: doc holiday</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/11/citi-rescue-talks-underway.html#comment-26683</link>
		<dc:creator>doc holiday</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Nov 2008 19:52:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/11/citi-rescue-talks-underway/#comment-26683</guid>
		<description>I wonder if this will be a textbook example of a no win deal, because there is not enough money to save Citi and whatever money is given to them, will be lost and the Treasury is in a position to just burn money on bad deals.  This death spiral is in need of some other innovative shock therapy and with deflation kicking in, I think they may need to hook up a few dozen super computers and then find someone to plug in some new directions and see what pops out (someday).  Then again, garbage in, garbage out and you can&#039;t fix a problem on the same level it was created, so maybe we need to have some smart people with slide rules, like an Einstein managing a handful of engineers  in some effort like when America went to The Moon (and back).  They did with the computer power of a toaster and bunch of smart people that had friggn slide rules!&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Also see and touch:  http://pr-canada.net/index.php?option=com_content&amp;task=view&amp;id=65751&amp;Itemid=65&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;IBM SEEKS TO BUILD THE COMPUTER OF THE FUTURE BASED ON INSIGHTS FROM THE BRAIN      &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;... the amount of digital data is growing at a mind-boggling 60 percent each year ...&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;IBM and its collaborators have been awarded $4.9 million in funding from the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) for the first phase of DARPA&#039;s Systems of Neuromorphic Adaptive Plastic Scalable Electronics (SyNAPSE) initiative. IBM&#039;s proposal, &quot;Cognitive Computing via Synaptronics and Supercomputing (C2S2),&quot; outlines groundbreaking research over the next nine months in areas including synaptronics, material science, neuromorphic circuitry, supercomputing simulations and virtual environments.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;&gt;&gt;  I imagine these guys will hook that retarded computer effort up to The HLC fantasy and look for shit that is really important  --  using some of the greatest minds of our time to continue looking beyond current reality, to a time that has no meaning or connection to the black hole we are in.  I think our society will make progress when many of these boobs are going hungry, when they are unemployed and forced at some point to contribute to society, versus suck off the teats of excess bullshit!&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;I&#039;ve said it before, i.e, if the engineers of today had to build bridges or Hoover Dams or giant public works projects, anything these new generation fools touch will fall apart, because they lack the focus and ethics to produce work that is useful!  The engineers of this age are as corrupt as the financial engineers that delivered financial chaos and the current deflation problem.  I assure you, they have no clue as to how to fix it, because they had no clue as to what they were doing in the first place, besides trying to get rick as fast as possible.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Barf!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wonder if this will be a textbook example of a no win deal, because there is not enough money to save Citi and whatever money is given to them, will be lost and the Treasury is in a position to just burn money on bad deals.  This death spiral is in need of some other innovative shock therapy and with deflation kicking in, I think they may need to hook up a few dozen super computers and then find someone to plug in some new directions and see what pops out (someday).  Then again, garbage in, garbage out and you can&#39;t fix a problem on the same level it was created, so maybe we need to have some smart people with slide rules, like an Einstein managing a handful of engineers  in some effort like when America went to The Moon (and back).  They did with the computer power of a toaster and bunch of smart people that had friggn slide rules!</p>
<p>Also see and touch:  <a href="http://pr-canada.net/index.php?option=com_content&amp;task=view&amp;id=65751&amp;Itemid=65" rel="nofollow">http://pr-canada.net/index.php?option=com_content&amp;task=view&amp;id=65751&amp;Itemid=65</a></p>
<p>IBM SEEKS TO BUILD THE COMPUTER OF THE FUTURE BASED ON INSIGHTS FROM THE BRAIN      </p>
<p>&#8230; the amount of digital data is growing at a mind-boggling 60 percent each year &#8230;</p>
<p>IBM and its collaborators have been awarded $4.9 million in funding from the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) for the first phase of DARPA&#39;s Systems of Neuromorphic Adaptive Plastic Scalable Electronics (SyNAPSE) initiative. IBM&#39;s proposal, &quot;Cognitive Computing via Synaptronics and Supercomputing (C2S2),&quot; outlines groundbreaking research over the next nine months in areas including synaptronics, material science, neuromorphic circuitry, supercomputing simulations and virtual environments.</p>
<p>&gt;&gt;  I imagine these guys will hook that retarded computer effort up to The HLC fantasy and look for shit that is really important  &#8212;  using some of the greatest minds of our time to continue looking beyond current reality, to a time that has no meaning or connection to the black hole we are in.  I think our society will make progress when many of these boobs are going hungry, when they are unemployed and forced at some point to contribute to society, versus suck off the teats of excess bullshit!</p>
<p>I&#39;ve said it before, i.e, if the engineers of today had to build bridges or Hoover Dams or giant public works projects, anything these new generation fools touch will fall apart, because they lack the focus and ethics to produce work that is useful!  The engineers of this age are as corrupt as the financial engineers that delivered financial chaos and the current deflation problem.  I assure you, they have no clue as to how to fix it, because they had no clue as to what they were doing in the first place, besides trying to get rick as fast as possible.</p>
<p>Barf!</p>
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		<title>By: tompain</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/11/citi-rescue-talks-underway.html#comment-26678</link>
		<dc:creator>tompain</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Nov 2008 18:52:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/11/citi-rescue-talks-underway/#comment-26678</guid>
		<description>I would bet that C would rally significantly if Treasury would simply clarify its intentions and make it clear that whatever it does will not be driven by the stock price.  Investors need confidence that the government is not going to pre-emptively wipe out the equity.  The crisis of confidence is being caused more by the government than by C&#039;s financial condition. &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;This is also why banks are not lending to the degree the government would like. With a sagging stock price, C has to be able to point to its capital ratios to keep the government at bay.  NCC got wiped out with higher capital ratios than C, for reasons that are still secret.  Why should C do anything at all to increase its risk of being sold to JPM or WFC or PNC for $1? &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Meanwhile Treasury is talking about doling out more TARP money on a &quot;matching funds&quot; basis for institutions that raise private capital?  You can&#039;t realistically expect that to work while you are also leaving on the table the ongoing threat of arbitrary government wipeouts.  Private capital went into FNM at the government&#039;s encouragement, only for that capital to be stolen by the government a few months later.  Later when the gov was urging FNM and FRE to raise even more capital, private equity groups were very explicit that they would not move as long as they were uncertain what the government might do.  They were right to worry that way. TPG&#039;s capital was wiped out at WM not long after the FNM/FRE debacle. &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;The government is the one causing a run on bank stocks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would bet that C would rally significantly if Treasury would simply clarify its intentions and make it clear that whatever it does will not be driven by the stock price.  Investors need confidence that the government is not going to pre-emptively wipe out the equity.  The crisis of confidence is being caused more by the government than by C&#8217;s financial condition. </p>
<p>This is also why banks are not lending to the degree the government would like. With a sagging stock price, C has to be able to point to its capital ratios to keep the government at bay.  NCC got wiped out with higher capital ratios than C, for reasons that are still secret.  Why should C do anything at all to increase its risk of being sold to JPM or WFC or PNC for $1? </p>
<p>Meanwhile Treasury is talking about doling out more TARP money on a &#8220;matching funds&#8221; basis for institutions that raise private capital?  You can&#8217;t realistically expect that to work while you are also leaving on the table the ongoing threat of arbitrary government wipeouts.  Private capital went into FNM at the government&#8217;s encouragement, only for that capital to be stolen by the government a few months later.  Later when the gov was urging FNM and FRE to raise even more capital, private equity groups were very explicit that they would not move as long as they were uncertain what the government might do.  They were right to worry that way. TPG&#8217;s capital was wiped out at WM not long after the FNM/FRE debacle. </p>
<p>The government is the one causing a run on bank stocks.</p>
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