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	<title>Comments on: Is Wall Street Pay Falling Far Enough?</title>
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		<title>By: Dave Raithel</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/11/is-wall-street-pay-falling-far-enough.html#comment-24873</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Raithel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Nov 2008 07:17:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/11/is-wall-street-pay-falling-far-enough/#comment-24873</guid>
		<description>&quot;But cost of living has never been a rationale for pay (at least in the US), otherwise artists and writers who live here would be better compensated.&quot;&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Ya break my heart ...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;But cost of living has never been a rationale for pay (at least in the US), otherwise artists and writers who live here would be better compensated.&#8221;</p>
<p>Ya break my heart &#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: tompain</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/11/is-wall-street-pay-falling-far-enough.html#comment-24621</link>
		<dc:creator>tompain</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Nov 2008 02:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>4:57: Yes, exactly. Is there some reason why we should be surprised that this happens?  Normal human behavior, is it not?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>4:57: Yes, exactly. Is there some reason why we should be surprised that this happens?  Normal human behavior, is it not?</p>
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		<title>By: tompain</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/11/is-wall-street-pay-falling-far-enough.html#comment-24620</link>
		<dc:creator>tompain</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Nov 2008 01:56:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/11/is-wall-street-pay-falling-far-enough/#comment-24620</guid>
		<description>1:17, sorry, but it does not work that way. Who is it that you want to &quot;show up&quot; at the shareholder meeting?  What do you want them to do there? The best solution for someone who thinks the companies are run poorly is not to own the stock. There are plenty of activist investors out there who could go after these companies if they thought it would make sense. Steel Partners tried to go after a money management firm with the intent of cutting comp. Guess what happened? All of the employees left, and the business went with them.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;You are wrong that the only difference between these companies and other public companies is a bonus culture. If that were true, some discount provider would have come to Wall Street and cleaned up the way Southwest Airlines did.  It has to do instead with the nature of the business. The primary money-making assets of these companies can walk out the door.  When they went to IPO themselves, investors should have just laughed and said what assurance do I have that you are not going to take all the profits for your employees?  But they didn&#039;t.  Caveat emptor. &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;This is why Buffet only wanted preferred stock. They have to pay his dividend. Even so he demanded constraints on the management team as part of his deal.  Common stock investors should have done same, but the time to do that was at the IPO.  &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Stay away from these stocks. That&#039;s all there is to it. The employees are going to ream the shareholders every time. Don&#039;t kid yourself that that is going to change. No one can make them change. &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;If not for the government getting involved here, none of us should even care that a bunch of bankers are screwing over a bunch of stockholders who were dumb enough to buy the stock in the first place.  Although, from a broader perspective, the same poor governance practices are at work everywhere else in our economy, with less drastic but still unfavorable effects.  It ought to change.  But there is no practical way for shareholders, however well-intentioned, to really make it happen.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>1:17, sorry, but it does not work that way. Who is it that you want to &#8220;show up&#8221; at the shareholder meeting?  What do you want them to do there? The best solution for someone who thinks the companies are run poorly is not to own the stock. There are plenty of activist investors out there who could go after these companies if they thought it would make sense. Steel Partners tried to go after a money management firm with the intent of cutting comp. Guess what happened? All of the employees left, and the business went with them.</p>
<p>You are wrong that the only difference between these companies and other public companies is a bonus culture. If that were true, some discount provider would have come to Wall Street and cleaned up the way Southwest Airlines did.  It has to do instead with the nature of the business. The primary money-making assets of these companies can walk out the door.  When they went to IPO themselves, investors should have just laughed and said what assurance do I have that you are not going to take all the profits for your employees?  But they didn&#8217;t.  Caveat emptor. </p>
<p>This is why Buffet only wanted preferred stock. They have to pay his dividend. Even so he demanded constraints on the management team as part of his deal.  Common stock investors should have done same, but the time to do that was at the IPO.  </p>
<p>Stay away from these stocks. That&#8217;s all there is to it. The employees are going to ream the shareholders every time. Don&#8217;t kid yourself that that is going to change. No one can make them change. </p>
<p>If not for the government getting involved here, none of us should even care that a bunch of bankers are screwing over a bunch of stockholders who were dumb enough to buy the stock in the first place.  Although, from a broader perspective, the same poor governance practices are at work everywhere else in our economy, with less drastic but still unfavorable effects.  It ought to change.  But there is no practical way for shareholders, however well-intentioned, to really make it happen.</p>
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		<title>By: bg</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/11/is-wall-street-pay-falling-far-enough.html#comment-24601</link>
		<dc:creator>bg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Nov 2008 22:33:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Isn&#039;t this moral hazard and tragedy of the commons game theory at play?&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;1. Bank &#039;A&#039; overpays talent - and knows it.  So does &#039;B&#039; and &#039;C&#039;.&lt;br/&gt;2. If Bank &#039;A&#039; were to lower pay in an oligopoly, then it would be in &#039;B&#039; and &#039;C&#039;s interest to gobble up the talent, as revenue follows talent.&lt;br/&gt;3. So Bank &#039;A&#039; ceases to exist.&lt;br/&gt;4. Bank &#039;B&#039; and Bank &#039;C&#039; are now losing 1.1 gazzilion, instead of their previous 1.0 gazzilion.  &lt;br/&gt;5. Bank &#039;B&#039; and Bank &#039;C&#039; now get more government bailouts, because &#039;A&#039; is out of the picture, and &#039;B&#039; and &#039;C&#039;s need is greater.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Isn&#8217;t this moral hazard and tragedy of the commons game theory at play?</p>
<p>1. Bank &#8216;A&#8217; overpays talent &#8211; and knows it.  So does &#8216;B&#8217; and &#8216;C&#8217;.<br />2. If Bank &#8216;A&#8217; were to lower pay in an oligopoly, then it would be in &#8216;B&#8217; and &#8216;C&#8217;s interest to gobble up the talent, as revenue follows talent.<br />3. So Bank &#8216;A&#8217; ceases to exist.<br />4. Bank &#8216;B&#8217; and Bank &#8216;C&#8217; are now losing 1.1 gazzilion, instead of their previous 1.0 gazzilion.  <br />5. Bank &#8216;B&#8217; and Bank &#8216;C&#8217; now get more government bailouts, because &#8216;A&#8217; is out of the picture, and &#8216;B&#8217; and &#8216;C&#8217;s need is greater.</p>
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		<title>By: ajw</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/11/is-wall-street-pay-falling-far-enough.html#comment-24597</link>
		<dc:creator>ajw</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Nov 2008 21:57:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>In other words, the same bankers who pushed and pushed corporate clients to value shareholders over their own employees do exactly the opposite in their own companies.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In other words, the same bankers who pushed and pushed corporate clients to value shareholders over their own employees do exactly the opposite in their own companies.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/11/is-wall-street-pay-falling-far-enough.html#comment-24582</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Nov 2008 18:17:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>@tompain: making them non public companies sounds like a solution. But are there no shareholders meetings where large shareholders can demand that the board abolishes the bonus culture? You make it sound like this is impossible, but the only difference between other public companies who pay their employees normal salaries (with maybe some stock or a modest bonus) and banks is the bonus culture at banks that developed in the past decade. This is not some kind of law of nature, this is a culture, and can therefore be changed if shareholders would demand it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@tompain: making them non public companies sounds like a solution. But are there no shareholders meetings where large shareholders can demand that the board abolishes the bonus culture? You make it sound like this is impossible, but the only difference between other public companies who pay their employees normal salaries (with maybe some stock or a modest bonus) and banks is the bonus culture at banks that developed in the past decade. This is not some kind of law of nature, this is a culture, and can therefore be changed if shareholders would demand it.</p>
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		<title>By: tompain</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/11/is-wall-street-pay-falling-far-enough.html#comment-24580</link>
		<dc:creator>tompain</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Nov 2008 17:56:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/11/is-wall-street-pay-falling-far-enough/#comment-24580</guid>
		<description>11:27, the essence of the problem is corporate governance. How exactly should shareholders &quot;demand&quot; that the bonus culture be abolished? It&#039;s not like there are contested elections for the board seats. Shareholders have no power.  The only reason even more money does not get paid out in compensation is that many of the senior employees own stock.  If too much goes to comp, the stock will tank. The likelihood that the balance between comp and earnings will be optimal for a non-employee shareholder is zero.  These companies really should not be publicly held companies.  There are other companies that pay their employees an enormous share of revenue - law firms, for example. Medical practices.  Accounting firms. Almost none are public.  The only ones who went public are the finance guys who know best how to sell stock to suckers.  Note that Buffett hasn&#039;t bought any GS common stock yet.  Bet he won&#039;t.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>11:27, the essence of the problem is corporate governance. How exactly should shareholders &#8220;demand&#8221; that the bonus culture be abolished? It&#8217;s not like there are contested elections for the board seats. Shareholders have no power.  The only reason even more money does not get paid out in compensation is that many of the senior employees own stock.  If too much goes to comp, the stock will tank. The likelihood that the balance between comp and earnings will be optimal for a non-employee shareholder is zero.  These companies really should not be publicly held companies.  There are other companies that pay their employees an enormous share of revenue &#8211; law firms, for example. Medical practices.  Accounting firms. Almost none are public.  The only ones who went public are the finance guys who know best how to sell stock to suckers.  Note that Buffett hasn&#8217;t bought any GS common stock yet.  Bet he won&#8217;t.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/11/is-wall-street-pay-falling-far-enough.html#comment-24571</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Nov 2008 16:27:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>is there any other industry where shareholders money is paid out to ordinary workers in such high numbers? I don&#039;t think so. This will not change until shareholders will demand that the bonus culture will be abolished. Or at least made in line with other industries. Banks claim they can&#039;t do this, because traders will go to other banks. I do not belief this, there are plenty of talented people wanting to be traders. Moreover, if they would all abolish it, there is no place to run. Its only an excuse they use because they do not want to abolish their own bonus.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>is there any other industry where shareholders money is paid out to ordinary workers in such high numbers? I don&#8217;t think so. This will not change until shareholders will demand that the bonus culture will be abolished. Or at least made in line with other industries. Banks claim they can&#8217;t do this, because traders will go to other banks. I do not belief this, there are plenty of talented people wanting to be traders. Moreover, if they would all abolish it, there is no place to run. Its only an excuse they use because they do not want to abolish their own bonus.</p>
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		<title>By: Moopheus</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/11/is-wall-street-pay-falling-far-enough.html#comment-24565</link>
		<dc:creator>Moopheus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Nov 2008 16:06:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>It doesn&#039;t seem unreasonable to ask the question, of why, if Wall Street was so badly capitalized it needed a bailout, it can afford to set aside money for bonuses. And if it could afford to do so, why did it need a bailout? It has been reported that Paulson forced some banks to take money from the TARP. Why did Paulson feel the need to do this, if he knew that the banks were holding on to this bonus pool?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It doesn&#8217;t seem unreasonable to ask the question, of why, if Wall Street was so badly capitalized it needed a bailout, it can afford to set aside money for bonuses. And if it could afford to do so, why did it need a bailout? It has been reported that Paulson forced some banks to take money from the TARP. Why did Paulson feel the need to do this, if he knew that the banks were holding on to this bonus pool?</p>
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		<title>By: fuguez</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/11/is-wall-street-pay-falling-far-enough.html#comment-24561</link>
		<dc:creator>fuguez</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Nov 2008 15:41:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I doubt Hedge Fund bonuses are much to write home about anyway.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I doubt Hedge Fund bonuses are much to write home about anyway.</p>
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