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	<title>Comments on: Shipowners Starting to Cancel Orders</title>
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		<title>By: williamdb</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/11/shipowners-starting-to-cancel-orders.html#comment-25170</link>
		<dc:creator>williamdb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Nov 2008 23:26:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Yves,&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Thanks for following up on this. I too am trying to find out more about this as the consequences of a trade breakdown would be devastating.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Having tried to gather data on the subject of letters of credit (or lack of) for about 6 weeks now I find little or non first hand data that would support these concerns. Where are the photos of containers stacked up in ports, where are the statements by grain exporters failing to find buyers? &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Could all this be much ado about nothing?&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Thanks&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;William</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yves,</p>
<p>Thanks for following up on this. I too am trying to find out more about this as the consequences of a trade breakdown would be devastating.</p>
<p>Having tried to gather data on the subject of letters of credit (or lack of) for about 6 weeks now I find little or non first hand data that would support these concerns. Where are the photos of containers stacked up in ports, where are the statements by grain exporters failing to find buyers? </p>
<p>Could all this be much ado about nothing?</p>
<p>Thanks</p>
<p>William</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/11/shipowners-starting-to-cancel-orders.html#comment-25076</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Nov 2008 12:31:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/11/shipowners-starting-to-cancel-orders/#comment-25076</guid>
		<description>There is a possible implication here that some are missing and it is that all shipping companies are struggling to survive. The shipping business in some ways mirrors the banking business, in that many of the cariers and ship owners are so inter related that there is a risk of a dominoes effect. We could end up with a systemic risk in dry bulk shipping such that there are no financially viable companies operating. Here there are plenty of ships but all the owners are bankrupt and unable to trade. Fortunately the effect on other types of shipping is rather more muted for the time being and perhaps rescue activities could stem from there.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is a possible implication here that some are missing and it is that all shipping companies are struggling to survive. The shipping business in some ways mirrors the banking business, in that many of the cariers and ship owners are so inter related that there is a risk of a dominoes effect. We could end up with a systemic risk in dry bulk shipping such that there are no financially viable companies operating. Here there are plenty of ships but all the owners are bankrupt and unable to trade. Fortunately the effect on other types of shipping is rather more muted for the time being and perhaps rescue activities could stem from there.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/11/shipowners-starting-to-cancel-orders.html#comment-25072</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Nov 2008 11:55:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>doc holiday... You make me laugh ! Thanks !&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt; Anonymous said... &lt;br/&gt;&quot;Obama was voted for change, but he made a move last week, which supports analysis below.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;War on iran/proxies coming in next few weeks!&quot;&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Ahem, sir I think you should consider if the &quot;change&quot; is from &quot;The Uncle Tom&#039;s Cabin&quot;&lt;br/&gt;to &quot;The Uncle Tom&#039;s... Kibbutz&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>doc holiday&#8230; You make me laugh ! Thanks !</p>
<p> Anonymous said&#8230; <br />&#8220;Obama was voted for change, but he made a move last week, which supports analysis below.</p>
<p>War on iran/proxies coming in next few weeks!&#8221;</p>
<p>Ahem, sir I think you should consider if the &#8220;change&#8221; is from &#8220;The Uncle Tom&#8217;s Cabin&#8221;<br />to &#8220;The Uncle Tom&#8217;s&#8230; Kibbutz&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/11/shipowners-starting-to-cancel-orders.html#comment-25012</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Nov 2008 03:45:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/11/shipowners-starting-to-cancel-orders/#comment-25012</guid>
		<description>Obama was voted for change, but he made a move last week, which supports analysis below.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;War on iran/proxies coming in next few weeks!&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Details below&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;http://www.marketwarnings.com/2008/11/is-attack-on-iran-syria-coming-soon.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Obama was voted for change, but he made a move last week, which supports analysis below.</p>
<p>War on iran/proxies coming in next few weeks!</p>
<p>Details below</p>
<p><a href="http://www.marketwarnings.com/2008/11/is-attack-on-iran-syria-coming-soon.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.marketwarnings.com/2008/11/is-attack-on-iran-syria-coming-soon.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: Jake</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/11/shipowners-starting-to-cancel-orders.html#comment-25007</link>
		<dc:creator>Jake</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Nov 2008 02:55:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/11/shipowners-starting-to-cancel-orders/#comment-25007</guid>
		<description>Since the advent of the container, the shipping industry is even more cyclical than the airline industry.  Huge capital costs plus low operational costs means that parking your ship doesn&#039;t save you much money, so you get vicious price wars in downturns.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Until shippers either start going bankrupt or renegotiate the debt on their ships, expect more of the same.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Since the advent of the container, the shipping industry is even more cyclical than the airline industry.  Huge capital costs plus low operational costs means that parking your ship doesn&#8217;t save you much money, so you get vicious price wars in downturns.</p>
<p>Until shippers either start going bankrupt or renegotiate the debt on their ships, expect more of the same.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/11/shipowners-starting-to-cancel-orders.html#comment-25005</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Nov 2008 02:43:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I wonder if taking a &quot;slash and burn&quot; type view toward shipping capacity might not be missing some other things that are going on in, and as a result of this trade financing matter and its spin-offs.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;There are those who argue that importers of bulk goods, grains, ores, and coal are running down inventories rather than buying goods which will only be cheaper tomorrow. There is a question what happens when the inventories need to be replaced. The US is among the affected exporters in this kind of case along with Brazil and Australia etc, but letters of credit have dried up for the financing of these kinds of activities.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Chinese trading companies on the other hand are said to be maintaining lists of financial institutions whose letters of credit they will not any longer accept.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;AS in other kinds of financial &quot;services&quot; much of the broking involved in financing trade, leasing ships, insuring cargoes, runs through London, where, presumably, some part of the world&#039;s $14 trillion bill for trade in goods is integrated with currency, interest rate and other kinds of speculative activities.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;I wonder if others have given any thought to the questions involved in this matter of trade financing, such as the time frame for more general economic consequences, the spin-off effect on already stressed financial markets and the derivative casino, the relation to the Libor and other money market interest rate questions which have generated such concern. The possible significance of China and others not accepting bank letters, as well as banks not issuing them.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Oh, and the oil business: is the same phnenomenon observed in the case of oil? Do the majors have such a stranglehold as to be immune from trade financing and tanker leasing problems? Could oil importing countries be looking at the same kind of problems in say 60 to 90 days as importers of other primary materials are?&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Is the result of this both economic dislocation and higher prices as inventories are run down?&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Any views?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wonder if taking a &#8220;slash and burn&#8221; type view toward shipping capacity might not be missing some other things that are going on in, and as a result of this trade financing matter and its spin-offs.</p>
<p>There are those who argue that importers of bulk goods, grains, ores, and coal are running down inventories rather than buying goods which will only be cheaper tomorrow. There is a question what happens when the inventories need to be replaced. The US is among the affected exporters in this kind of case along with Brazil and Australia etc, but letters of credit have dried up for the financing of these kinds of activities.</p>
<p>Chinese trading companies on the other hand are said to be maintaining lists of financial institutions whose letters of credit they will not any longer accept.</p>
<p>AS in other kinds of financial &#8220;services&#8221; much of the broking involved in financing trade, leasing ships, insuring cargoes, runs through London, where, presumably, some part of the world&#8217;s $14 trillion bill for trade in goods is integrated with currency, interest rate and other kinds of speculative activities.</p>
<p>I wonder if others have given any thought to the questions involved in this matter of trade financing, such as the time frame for more general economic consequences, the spin-off effect on already stressed financial markets and the derivative casino, the relation to the Libor and other money market interest rate questions which have generated such concern. The possible significance of China and others not accepting bank letters, as well as banks not issuing them.</p>
<p>Oh, and the oil business: is the same phnenomenon observed in the case of oil? Do the majors have such a stranglehold as to be immune from trade financing and tanker leasing problems? Could oil importing countries be looking at the same kind of problems in say 60 to 90 days as importers of other primary materials are?</p>
<p>Is the result of this both economic dislocation and higher prices as inventories are run down?</p>
<p>Any views?</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/11/shipowners-starting-to-cancel-orders.html#comment-24999</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Nov 2008 02:02:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>A few 100 billion of Tarp money should keep the shipbuilders building.  We can have GM build some ships.   Shouldn&#039;t be much of a change based on the sizes of their SUV&#039;s.  And imagine the cool macho ads they can run.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A few 100 billion of Tarp money should keep the shipbuilders building.  We can have GM build some ships.   Shouldn&#8217;t be much of a change based on the sizes of their SUV&#8217;s.  And imagine the cool macho ads they can run.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/11/shipowners-starting-to-cancel-orders.html#comment-24993</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Nov 2008 00:57:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Actually now is not as good a time to retire as a few months ago when scrapped ships were worth more, also with current economic conditions no one is going to buy your ship whole either.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually now is not as good a time to retire as a few months ago when scrapped ships were worth more, also with current economic conditions no one is going to buy your ship whole either.</p>
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		<title>By: EvilHenryPaulson</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/11/shipowners-starting-to-cancel-orders.html#comment-24989</link>
		<dc:creator>EvilHenryPaulson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Nov 2008 00:44:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>$160bn in orders to be cancelled for dry bulk carriers&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Still waiting to see the recycling of older ships, their owners can&#039;t hold off forever. It&#039;s a good time to retire, why fight it&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;The rest will be consolidated</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>$160bn in orders to be cancelled for dry bulk carriers</p>
<p>Still waiting to see the recycling of older ships, their owners can&#8217;t hold off forever. It&#8217;s a good time to retire, why fight it</p>
<p>The rest will be consolidated</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/11/shipowners-starting-to-cancel-orders.html#comment-24988</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Nov 2008 00:08:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/11/shipowners-starting-to-cancel-orders/#comment-24988</guid>
		<description>matt, again you remain unaware of the flaws of fiat currency. the temptation is too great to simply &quot;print&quot; fiat especially when such recent massive printing is seeing at the same time dollar-strength. in fact, the strong dollar since july has made everyone forget the consequence of such printing: dollar debasement..its inevitable that fiat currency debasement in its present form will OVERWHELM the deflation soon enough...it may be another 3-6 months but again, forget not the ease with which fiat money can be made/created. your deflation is defntely here right now and it leaves the world craving dollars. and the world will get what it thinks it wants right now: us dollars and us treasuries..</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>matt, again you remain unaware of the flaws of fiat currency. the temptation is too great to simply &#8220;print&#8221; fiat especially when such recent massive printing is seeing at the same time dollar-strength. in fact, the strong dollar since july has made everyone forget the consequence of such printing: dollar debasement..its inevitable that fiat currency debasement in its present form will OVERWHELM the deflation soon enough&#8230;it may be another 3-6 months but again, forget not the ease with which fiat money can be made/created. your deflation is defntely here right now and it leaves the world craving dollars. and the world will get what it thinks it wants right now: us dollars and us treasuries..</p>
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