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	<title>Comments on: Has Beggar Thy Neighbor Started?</title>
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		<title>By: rtah100</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/12/has-beggar-thy-neighbor-started.html#comment-30261</link>
		<dc:creator>rtah100</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Dec 2008 10:14:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>@ozajh&lt;br/&gt;Agreed. There&#039;s not much space in comments for a rounded treatment of issues!&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;WW1 distorted capital, labour and consumption, towards smokestack industries. &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Britain incurred hige war debts to the US, repayment of which depressed the economy in the 1920&#039;s, and she found her continental European markets difficult to re-enter because America was preferred by Germay et al. (can&#039;t imagine why, it was just a small war!). &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;However, the labour and consumption disasters were particularly long-lasting: WW1 wiped out a generation of managerial and skilled labour (the kind that made up to the post-WWII prosperity boom) while heavy industry workers were not drafted. The war, which did not significantly damage the US, Germany, central European and British industrial heartlands (although France got nicked and Belgium took a bullet), so at its end, the global economy found itself with a surplus of heavy industry and a lack of domestic consumption and foreign demand for a generation. &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;It would have taken more than a generation to restore, except WWII was the opposite kind of war, that flattened cities and industrial plant but left the people standing (relatively - and I ignore the civil wars and famine in Russia and China for the period WW1-WW2). So capacity was brought in line with consumption growth. Most of the capacity happened to be in the USA. Consumption growth in Europe was again fuelled by US finance (the Marshall Plan). &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Only Britain was forced to fund recovery post-WWII from internal cashflow, and while her Empire was dismantled, but those were always explicit goals of America in WWII - brought about in part because of Imperial Preference and the use of tariffs, which were only tit-for-tat for Smoot Hawley. &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;&quot;Fair trade&quot; has some nasty consequences, especially for Empires rather than small trading nations....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ozajh<br />Agreed. There&#8217;s not much space in comments for a rounded treatment of issues!</p>
<p>WW1 distorted capital, labour and consumption, towards smokestack industries. </p>
<p>Britain incurred hige war debts to the US, repayment of which depressed the economy in the 1920&#8217;s, and she found her continental European markets difficult to re-enter because America was preferred by Germay et al. (can&#8217;t imagine why, it was just a small war!). </p>
<p>However, the labour and consumption disasters were particularly long-lasting: WW1 wiped out a generation of managerial and skilled labour (the kind that made up to the post-WWII prosperity boom) while heavy industry workers were not drafted. The war, which did not significantly damage the US, Germany, central European and British industrial heartlands (although France got nicked and Belgium took a bullet), so at its end, the global economy found itself with a surplus of heavy industry and a lack of domestic consumption and foreign demand for a generation. </p>
<p>It would have taken more than a generation to restore, except WWII was the opposite kind of war, that flattened cities and industrial plant but left the people standing (relatively &#8211; and I ignore the civil wars and famine in Russia and China for the period WW1-WW2). So capacity was brought in line with consumption growth. Most of the capacity happened to be in the USA. Consumption growth in Europe was again fuelled by US finance (the Marshall Plan). </p>
<p>Only Britain was forced to fund recovery post-WWII from internal cashflow, and while her Empire was dismantled, but those were always explicit goals of America in WWII &#8211; brought about in part because of Imperial Preference and the use of tariffs, which were only tit-for-tat for Smoot Hawley. </p>
<p>&#8220;Fair trade&#8221; has some nasty consequences, especially for Empires rather than small trading nations&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: ozajh</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/12/has-beggar-thy-neighbor-started.html#comment-30253</link>
		<dc:creator>ozajh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Dec 2008 05:54:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>One point that should not be overlooked regarding Britain&#039;s &quot;outperformance&quot; during the 1930&#039;s is that large parts of Britain did not enjoy the roaring 20&#039;s as a precursor.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;For the heavy industrial areas in the North of England (especially the North-East), it can be argued the Great Depression started in 1919 rather than 1929.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;(Perhaps parts of the US Rustbelt are in a similar position today.  They&#039;re not going to fall as far in percentage terms simply because they weren&#039;t involved in the earlier rise.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One point that should not be overlooked regarding Britain&#8217;s &#8220;outperformance&#8221; during the 1930&#8217;s is that large parts of Britain did not enjoy the roaring 20&#8217;s as a precursor.</p>
<p>For the heavy industrial areas in the North of England (especially the North-East), it can be argued the Great Depression started in 1919 rather than 1929.</p>
<p>(Perhaps parts of the US Rustbelt are in a similar position today.  They&#8217;re not going to fall as far in percentage terms simply because they weren&#8217;t involved in the earlier rise.)</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/12/has-beggar-thy-neighbor-started.html#comment-30240</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Dec 2008 04:09:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Some fine solid points and &quot;protectiism&quot; did NOT work out too well during our last....?  &lt;br/&gt;BUT, a minor(?) point, Smoot and Hawley were NOT trying to protect &quot;employment&quot;, but, as very conservative Republicans,(Senate and House) our exporting corporations!&lt;br/&gt;That huge failure was the very LAST time the GOP &quot;embraced&quot; &quot;protectionism&quot;, but we ought to be honest about Econ History, to form our philosophies!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Some fine solid points and &#8220;protectiism&#8221; did NOT work out too well during our last&#8230;.?  <br />BUT, a minor(?) point, Smoot and Hawley were NOT trying to protect &#8220;employment&#8221;, but, as very conservative Republicans,(Senate and House) our exporting corporations!<br />That huge failure was the very LAST time the GOP &#8220;embraced&#8221; &#8220;protectionism&#8221;, but we ought to be honest about Econ History, to form our philosophies!</p>
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		<title>By: rtah100</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/12/has-beggar-thy-neighbor-started.html#comment-30224</link>
		<dc:creator>rtah100</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Dec 2008 23:04:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>The Telegraph&#039;s point about Imperial Preference is well made but I wonder how much relative British out-performance during the Depression is related to oil (I ignore coal, simply because all of the big economies had domestic coalfields). &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;The world&#039;s major oilfields were located in the Gulf and under British control. I don&#039;t know the figures but I imagine the major part of European consumption came from Gulf fields (rather than the more minor Romanian and Caspian production, and US production that was presumably subject to tariffs). A non-discretionary import by your competitors is a helpful thing to have when devaluing.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;NB: The balance of payments implications of the Anglo-Persian oil company were still important enough to justify the UK-promoted coup against Mossadegh in the early 50&#039;s.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;America today has an empire (the BWII dollar zone) and she has a reserve currency but she does not have oil exports. If America is determined to devalue, rather than deleverage, and the Chinese refuse to agree to revalue within BWII - for which they have ample cushion, given their recent growth has been in trade against the strong Euro - the USA will come closer to &quot;the last devaluation&quot; - i.e. forcing the dollar down through the floor imposed by reserve status. &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;The price of this will be the end of the US-Gulf compact, because the petro-dollars are mostly spent in Eurasia so why generate and hold oil revenue in dollars? Where the Gulf goes, China will follow, since her Euro trade is as important as her dollar trade, and BWII will have been replaced by a Eurasian Euro-bloc.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Telegraph&#8217;s point about Imperial Preference is well made but I wonder how much relative British out-performance during the Depression is related to oil (I ignore coal, simply because all of the big economies had domestic coalfields). </p>
<p>The world&#8217;s major oilfields were located in the Gulf and under British control. I don&#8217;t know the figures but I imagine the major part of European consumption came from Gulf fields (rather than the more minor Romanian and Caspian production, and US production that was presumably subject to tariffs). A non-discretionary import by your competitors is a helpful thing to have when devaluing.</p>
<p>NB: The balance of payments implications of the Anglo-Persian oil company were still important enough to justify the UK-promoted coup against Mossadegh in the early 50&#8217;s.</p>
<p>America today has an empire (the BWII dollar zone) and she has a reserve currency but she does not have oil exports. If America is determined to devalue, rather than deleverage, and the Chinese refuse to agree to revalue within BWII &#8211; for which they have ample cushion, given their recent growth has been in trade against the strong Euro &#8211; the USA will come closer to &#8220;the last devaluation&#8221; &#8211; i.e. forcing the dollar down through the floor imposed by reserve status. </p>
<p>The price of this will be the end of the US-Gulf compact, because the petro-dollars are mostly spent in Eurasia so why generate and hold oil revenue in dollars? Where the Gulf goes, China will follow, since her Euro trade is as important as her dollar trade, and BWII will have been replaced by a Eurasian Euro-bloc.</p>
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		<title>By: S</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/12/has-beggar-thy-neighbor-started.html#comment-30218</link>
		<dc:creator>S</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Dec 2008 22:25:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>mft,&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;The US does not have the collective will power that would come with such a policy. Any way you frame it it is a collective downgrade in standard of living. youa re right that brezinski8 is focused on the Russian menace as he has always been. He is also the architect of his own middle eastern failures so hands off there wouldn&#039;t be a surprise.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;As for the US controlling Europe, this is exactly what the US is trying to do by imposing its detestable monetary policy on the rest of world. Trichet is resisting the urge but the chorus of appease me now folks declared mercy before the game started. The respnsible central bank in Europe will at some point put an end to the US folly. Berlin comes to mind. &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;The idea that the US is in a position to dictate terms to anyone is retrograde. Debtors don;t negotiate the terms. They abide by the settlement. I fear that time is approaching and no amount of smart bombs or nukes will stop it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>mft,</p>
<p>The US does not have the collective will power that would come with such a policy. Any way you frame it it is a collective downgrade in standard of living. youa re right that brezinski8 is focused on the Russian menace as he has always been. He is also the architect of his own middle eastern failures so hands off there wouldn&#8217;t be a surprise.</p>
<p>As for the US controlling Europe, this is exactly what the US is trying to do by imposing its detestable monetary policy on the rest of world. Trichet is resisting the urge but the chorus of appease me now folks declared mercy before the game started. The respnsible central bank in Europe will at some point put an end to the US folly. Berlin comes to mind. </p>
<p>The idea that the US is in a position to dictate terms to anyone is retrograde. Debtors don;t negotiate the terms. They abide by the settlement. I fear that time is approaching and no amount of smart bombs or nukes will stop it.</p>
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		<title>By: mft</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/12/has-beggar-thy-neighbor-started.html#comment-30212</link>
		<dc:creator>mft</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Dec 2008 21:41:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>2009 may see many of the international ramifications of the collapse in world trade subsumed within important geostrategic shifts. For some years the USA has been faced with having to choose between two thrusts: control Europe (the much underestimated potential future rival) or control the Persian Gulf (and thus dictate energy terms to e.g. China and India). The USA does not have the imperial resources to do both at once. Cheney and Bush chose the second option. It seems likely, judging by what Brzezinski and others have been writing, that Obama may choose the first. A major flag-waving opportunity in this would be a campaign to counter Chinese mercantilist policy (China&#039;s surplus is shared half-half between USA and Europe) with a call for a carbon tarif on Chinese exports. Obama would gather Europe up behind American leadership on both a &quot;good&quot; protectionism and action on climate change, and effectively put an end to independent European policy making on all the key issues.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;(I do not mean that I myself think it would be &quot;good&quot; protectionism, just that this is how it would be presented.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>2009 may see many of the international ramifications of the collapse in world trade subsumed within important geostrategic shifts. For some years the USA has been faced with having to choose between two thrusts: control Europe (the much underestimated potential future rival) or control the Persian Gulf (and thus dictate energy terms to e.g. China and India). The USA does not have the imperial resources to do both at once. Cheney and Bush chose the second option. It seems likely, judging by what Brzezinski and others have been writing, that Obama may choose the first. A major flag-waving opportunity in this would be a campaign to counter Chinese mercantilist policy (China&#8217;s surplus is shared half-half between USA and Europe) with a call for a carbon tarif on Chinese exports. Obama would gather Europe up behind American leadership on both a &#8220;good&#8221; protectionism and action on climate change, and effectively put an end to independent European policy making on all the key issues.</p>
<p>(I do not mean that I myself think it would be &#8220;good&#8221; protectionism, just that this is how it would be presented.)</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/12/has-beggar-thy-neighbor-started.html#comment-30205</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Dec 2008 20:05:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>The Ford Fusion is manufactured in Mexico, away from US union wage. It will be tough to compete with wages set outside the US. Probably why Ford doesn&#039;t need a bailout, for now.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Ford Fusion is manufactured in Mexico, away from US union wage. It will be tough to compete with wages set outside the US. Probably why Ford doesn&#8217;t need a bailout, for now.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/12/has-beggar-thy-neighbor-started.html#comment-30204</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Dec 2008 20:01:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>what right does the US have to tell China how to relate to ITS OWN CURRENCY? It belongs to THEM, not us. They can do as they wish.&lt;br/&gt;Wtf is wrong with this country? If we don&#039;t like it, we can figure out another response.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>what right does the US have to tell China how to relate to ITS OWN CURRENCY? It belongs to THEM, not us. They can do as they wish.<br />Wtf is wrong with this country? If we don&#8217;t like it, we can figure out another response.</p>
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		<title>By: dumpitall</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/12/has-beggar-thy-neighbor-started.html#comment-30203</link>
		<dc:creator>dumpitall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Dec 2008 19:56:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Proposal:&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Set a deadline.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;All overseas holdings of US dollars are to be exchanged for Treasury IOUs.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Bring the paper money home.  If it didn&#039;t come in by deadline, it&#039;s worthless.  If it did, they got a Treasury IOU for it.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Burn half of the paper money.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Do the same thing inside the US.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Proposal:</p>
<p>Set a deadline.</p>
<p>All overseas holdings of US dollars are to be exchanged for Treasury IOUs.</p>
<p>Bring the paper money home.  If it didn&#8217;t come in by deadline, it&#8217;s worthless.  If it did, they got a Treasury IOU for it.</p>
<p>Burn half of the paper money.</p>
<p>Do the same thing inside the US.</p>
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		<title>By: Eric L. Prentis</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/12/has-beggar-thy-neighbor-started.html#comment-30195</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric L. Prentis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Dec 2008 18:19:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Academia likes to tout the virtues of free trade but actually the US, by using the tax code to pay large US corporations to ship manufacturing jobs overseas, has managed trade. All those lost US manufacturing jobs are now exacerbating the severe US recession. Survival through trade protection is human nature, lets use the tax code to bring those manufacturing jobs back home.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Academia likes to tout the virtues of free trade but actually the US, by using the tax code to pay large US corporations to ship manufacturing jobs overseas, has managed trade. All those lost US manufacturing jobs are now exacerbating the severe US recession. Survival through trade protection is human nature, lets use the tax code to bring those manufacturing jobs back home.</p>
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