Where did the NYT get its $10bn for both GM and C?

As for those who talk about bringing UAW wages in line with those of plants in right-to-work-for-less states, please see labor economics 101: it was only the pitifully and tragically insufficient threat of UAW organization that made the wages at the non-union plants track those of the UAW, albeit at a lower rate. Remove even the remote possibility of union organization, couple it with a collapse in demand, and you’ll quickly see a corresponding decline in wages throughout the industry. That seems to be something the Senators from those states enthusiastically await.

Should Detroit go down, it will be a crystallization of ideology – in this case, vicious SOB union busting – trumping economic common sense: the costs of the PBGC taking on the auto pensions alone will far exceed the cost of a bailout or two.

Then, they should wait for the carcass that is GM/Chrysler to roll over and die. Use that paper as leverage to remake those clowns into something better.

My mom works/worked for a supplier for $15/hour. Her company supplies the Detroit 3, as well as Honda, Toyota, Nissan, and Subaru. I’m also certain they supply the Germans, too (it is a German company), but not from her plant. The company laid her off the other day. From a workforce of 350 three years ago, they are now down to 29 working three days a week. The company has notified the foreign automakers that if any of the Detroit 3 file for bankruptcy, it will need to close its remaining US factories and raise prices. Like most of the suppliers, it operates on volume with little margin. It is already struggling but take out any of the Detroit 3 and it will not make it without further adjustments.

As for the bank bailout, don’t get me started. Not only did Treasury give money without restrictions, it waived application of 382(h) to banks.

I thought that all the money going to the banks was supposed to give the banks the ability to set-up loans. What gives?

Hell, maybe they already loaned the carmakers a ton, maybe they’ve been trying “moral suasion” behind the scenes all year, maybe nationalization is the only route to reform but is politically unpalatable. Maybe this is the end game of a process to which we have not been privy.

ignorantCanadian

PS A word of advice to Americans: don’t get bogged down in regional hatreds (there is a somewhat regional/civilwar rhetoric of rivalry surfacing on these pages and others). As a Canuck, I can attest that it is not a fun game to play (unless of course you work for the demagogy)

There will be pain, period. We need to liquidate debt and if that means liqudiating companies, then we need to do that too. The sooner we do the sooner real investment can be made in building up viable enterprises which will employ all the people that will need jobs at that point, and the sooner we can get back to a healthier economy.

The Fed and it’s fractional reserve system SUCKS!
Politicians, both aisles, mostly suck.
Big 3 managment SUCKS!
UAW management SUCKS!

See you at the bottom.

Gamma

I can’t tell who’s a worse speaker, Bush or Gettlefinger. I’d go with the latter.

This wasn’t a filibuster, it was a vote on closure, and presumably Senators want to go home for Christmas. So keeping debate open would kill the bill. The answer, of course, is to keep the senate and house open.

All sound and fury and it forces Bush to kick in the TARP money. The only politics is Bush should try to kill Shelby and Corker for screwing up his plans.

I think I answered you question in full from a real world perspective. You merely chose to ignore it. From the point of view of the country as a whole, and not a subset of workers that consider themselves privileged for some reason, it really doesn’t matter whether workers work at Ford or Toyota.

The Japanese have pension and health care. They may be inferior (I am not qualified to comment) but they exist. A huge number of American workers (including myself) have only social Security and Medicare, which are shitty now and probably will be much worse in the future. In other words, workers who have these great benefits want to further disadvantage those who don’t, i.e., the billions that go into the black hole that is Detroit could be spent on providing health care for low-income people. What says the Union about that?

The only real downside is that the profits accrue mostly to a foreign owner, although Toyota is a public company and you can buy shares.

I do not want to live in a socialist country. I visited the USSR once upon a time and did not like it. If a company cannot make a competitive product it should go the way of the dodo. Many industries have and the US has not collapsed.

In the real world I live in, I have to perform everyday and deliver results. If I don’t, my ass will be out the door in a heartbeat – I have no guaranteed contract, no union commissar to step in, no job bank. In a sense it’s not really fair, since when things are great I do not reap all the upside, but fiduciary duty is a bitch. US industry has largely died (services ARE the economy, forget about support) because many workers live in fantasyland, extracting outrageous concessions while their products collect dust on the shelf. It’s time to get back to reality before the last vestiges of US industry die, which would not be good for the US of A. (How about a Boeing strike in support of the UAW – solidarity! Da!)

When you are ready to have a serious discussion, let me know. In the meantime, I think your “drivel” and other similar rhetoric indicates a lack of maturity/understanding. I see no point in any further exchanges, especially on a blog like this which is fairly insightful and focused on the economic issues, not their political/personal interpretations.

Adieu!