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	<title>Comments on: Chinese Factory Output, Employment Falls at Record Pace</title>
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		<title>By: Glen</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2009/01/chinese-factory-output-employment-falls.html#comment-31070</link>
		<dc:creator>Glen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Jan 2009 01:42:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Annon 1044: You don&#039;t need me to tell you that China has been watching, adapting and exploiting Western economic trends for decades. When the US started the &quot;outsourcing&quot; industrial craze to Mexico, China adapted and became a cheaper manufacturing base. While the Western world rolled with floating currencies, China deliberately undervalued and pegged the Yuan to the US$ creating a massive and ultimately dangerous trade imbalance. While the Western world gorged on debt, China saved. Now we have the &quot;crisis&quot;. When compared to the Western efforts, China&#039;s responses have been relatively benign given the size of their surpluses and population. Interest rates have been reduced but not as aggressively as Western nations have (bubble weary?) while their stimulus package was a shade over $500 b most of which was a re-packaging of existing programmes. Chinas been burnt buying crappy US Treasuries and investing in shonky US financials and as a result are in no mood to bail out the US and will do what it has to to support themselves in their own time and space. China will have it&#039;s own financial crisis given the debt laden SOE&#039;s and banks but I&#039;d expect that their response will be somewhat more involved, controlled and measured as opposed to BB and HP&#039;s woeful free for all handout to their banking mates. The big down side with China is that they&#039;re more concerned with controlling their image as opposed to dealing with facts. Will be interesting to watch.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Annon 1044: You don&#8217;t need me to tell you that China has been watching, adapting and exploiting Western economic trends for decades. When the US started the &#8220;outsourcing&#8221; industrial craze to Mexico, China adapted and became a cheaper manufacturing base. While the Western world rolled with floating currencies, China deliberately undervalued and pegged the Yuan to the US$ creating a massive and ultimately dangerous trade imbalance. While the Western world gorged on debt, China saved. Now we have the &#8220;crisis&#8221;. When compared to the Western efforts, China&#8217;s responses have been relatively benign given the size of their surpluses and population. Interest rates have been reduced but not as aggressively as Western nations have (bubble weary?) while their stimulus package was a shade over $500 b most of which was a re-packaging of existing programmes. Chinas been burnt buying crappy US Treasuries and investing in shonky US financials and as a result are in no mood to bail out the US and will do what it has to to support themselves in their own time and space. China will have it&#8217;s own financial crisis given the debt laden SOE&#8217;s and banks but I&#8217;d expect that their response will be somewhat more involved, controlled and measured as opposed to BB and HP&#8217;s woeful free for all handout to their banking mates. The big down side with China is that they&#8217;re more concerned with controlling their image as opposed to dealing with facts. Will be interesting to watch.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Kline</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2009/01/chinese-factory-output-employment-falls.html#comment-31010</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Kline</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Jan 2009 08:16:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2009/01/chinese-factory-output-employment-falls-at-record-pace/#comment-31010</guid>
		<description>So Yves, Menzie Chinn has two great articles over at Econbrowser on collapsing trade financing, one of which you linked in on 29 Dec.  They largely bear out the issue you have been following---trade financing in fact _does_ seem to be contracting---but the added detail begins to fill in some of this picture.  Chinn&#039;s main points culled from the press and elsewhere:&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;1) Big players---Wachovia---have exited trade finance period&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;2) Most big players did not actually hold the LC obligations _but resold them in secondary markets_ to smaller banks; now, those buyers are non-existent.  Presumably, the former major players don&#039;t want to hold the committments on their own rotten books.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;3) Most LCs that count are dollar-based, and dollar financing generally is getting pulled from many emerging markets, or marked up so severely---Brazil was mentioned as a country so afflicted---as to wipe out trade contract profit, and so wipes out the deal.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;4)Some exporters, notably mentioned in China, are wary of the financial stability of their US counterparties, and so are pressing for tougher guarantees at the same time as dollar-based financing &amp;etc. is vaporizing.  &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;The issue with trade impedence seems to be less that any one large trade-financing bank has pulled credit from Customer(s) X than that _ALL_ of the parameters which affect financing have been ratcheted in a notch simultaneously.  But to me, number 2) the vanishing repurchaser market was both new and telling:  trade finance seems to have been converted to yet another fee-generation product by the banking majors, and so obviously now that they have to carry the costs and book the risks _themselves_ they want as little to do with it as possible.  This will end badly.  Or more probably, &quot;Hello, Ex/Im Bank, Savior of Our Prosperity.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So Yves, Menzie Chinn has two great articles over at Econbrowser on collapsing trade financing, one of which you linked in on 29 Dec.  They largely bear out the issue you have been following&#8212;trade financing in fact _does_ seem to be contracting&#8212;but the added detail begins to fill in some of this picture.  Chinn&#39;s main points culled from the press and elsewhere:</p>
<p>1) Big players&#8212;Wachovia&#8212;have exited trade finance period</p>
<p>2) Most big players did not actually hold the LC obligations _but resold them in secondary markets_ to smaller banks; now, those buyers are non-existent.  Presumably, the former major players don&#39;t want to hold the committments on their own rotten books.</p>
<p>3) Most LCs that count are dollar-based, and dollar financing generally is getting pulled from many emerging markets, or marked up so severely&#8212;Brazil was mentioned as a country so afflicted&#8212;as to wipe out trade contract profit, and so wipes out the deal.</p>
<p>4)Some exporters, notably mentioned in China, are wary of the financial stability of their US counterparties, and so are pressing for tougher guarantees at the same time as dollar-based financing &amp;etc. is vaporizing.  </p>
<p>The issue with trade impedence seems to be less that any one large trade-financing bank has pulled credit from Customer(s) X than that _ALL_ of the parameters which affect financing have been ratcheted in a notch simultaneously.  But to me, number 2) the vanishing repurchaser market was both new and telling:  trade finance seems to have been converted to yet another fee-generation product by the banking majors, and so obviously now that they have to carry the costs and book the risks _themselves_ they want as little to do with it as possible.  This will end badly.  Or more probably, &quot;Hello, Ex/Im Bank, Savior of Our Prosperity.&quot;</p>
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		<title>By: Anonym@ss</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2009/01/chinese-factory-output-employment-falls.html#comment-31003</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonym@ss</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Jan 2009 06:20:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>What would happen if they turn violent and overturn the red capitalists ? Mao II ...&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;All those factories ...&lt;br/&gt;i&#039;m a dreamer</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What would happen if they turn violent and overturn the red capitalists ? Mao II &#8230;</p>
<p>All those factories &#8230;<br />i&#8217;m a dreamer</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2009/01/chinese-factory-output-employment-falls.html#comment-30998</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Jan 2009 03:44:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Glen said: &quot;They might not be very creative but smart enough to know that Bernnanke &amp; Co. have created one big mess and no exit.&quot;&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;How so, glenny</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Glen said: &quot;They might not be very creative but smart enough to know that Bernnanke &amp; Co. have created one big mess and no exit.&quot;</p>
<p>How so, glenny</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2009/01/chinese-factory-output-employment-falls.html#comment-30996</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Jan 2009 02:38:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Seems to me China has been doing about it all it can do in terms of infrastructure spending.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Sichuan earthquake, 2008 Olympic Games, building boom in the coastal&lt;br/&gt;provinces, power plants, Three Gorges etc.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;What else can they do? Investment is already over 50% of GDP! With rising unemployment, bankrupt factories etc what is going to induce a $2000/year worker to go on a spending spree?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Seems to me China has been doing about it all it can do in terms of infrastructure spending.</p>
<p>Sichuan earthquake, 2008 Olympic Games, building boom in the coastal<br />provinces, power plants, Three Gorges etc.</p>
<p>What else can they do? Investment is already over 50% of GDP! With rising unemployment, bankrupt factories etc what is going to induce a $2000/year worker to go on a spending spree?</p>
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		<title>By: Lim</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2009/01/chinese-factory-output-employment-falls.html#comment-30995</link>
		<dc:creator>Lim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Jan 2009 02:17:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>The nation&#039;s industry structure is so skewed by mindless pursuit of GDP (as a number) growth that it is impossible to avoid an adjustment that is painful, or rather, extremely painful.  And watch out for the social unrest.  The biggest issue though, and probably the single factor most similar to the US govt, is that the Chinese have no playbook too.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The nation&#8217;s industry structure is so skewed by mindless pursuit of GDP (as a number) growth that it is impossible to avoid an adjustment that is painful, or rather, extremely painful.  And watch out for the social unrest.  The biggest issue though, and probably the single factor most similar to the US govt, is that the Chinese have no playbook too.</p>
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		<title>By: Jonathan Bernstein</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2009/01/chinese-factory-output-employment-falls.html#comment-30994</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan Bernstein</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Jan 2009 01:25:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2009/01/chinese-factory-output-employment-falls-at-record-pace/#comment-30994</guid>
		<description>No one should expect China to cut its savings rate and consume more anytime soon, as the Chinese government provides no safety net. There is no welfare or social security in China. Those Chinese who make enough money to save anything (aside from the wealthiest few) save prodigiously, because they are afraid of what might happen if they do not. &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Furthermore, many services that are supposedly free in China, come only with under the table payments. Such things that require under the table payments in China include medicine, surgery, and good preschools. Another reason why high savings are important to individual and family survival. The Chinese are NOT going to be able to replace export demand with internal consumption without revamping their society in many profound ways. &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;One more point. While the consensus seems to think that China will eke out positive economic growth in 2009, I think outright recession in China (as some have suggested here) is highly likely. Since, as has been widely reported, Chinese electricity use has been falling, year-on- year, it is hard to believe that the economy is growing much; government doctoring of output statistics is more likely in my opinion. Furthermore, in an economy that recorded breakneck growth for so many years that also contained a very large state-owned sector, there were bound to be huge mistakes in capital allocation that will be revealed as output falls. The large number of Chinese toy factories that have shut down for lack of US demand are an example of this; no doubt more will become obvious. As Warren Buffett says, &quot;When the tide goes out you learn who has been swimming naked.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No one should expect China to cut its savings rate and consume more anytime soon, as the Chinese government provides no safety net. There is no welfare or social security in China. Those Chinese who make enough money to save anything (aside from the wealthiest few) save prodigiously, because they are afraid of what might happen if they do not. </p>
<p>Furthermore, many services that are supposedly free in China, come only with under the table payments. Such things that require under the table payments in China include medicine, surgery, and good preschools. Another reason why high savings are important to individual and family survival. The Chinese are NOT going to be able to replace export demand with internal consumption without revamping their society in many profound ways. </p>
<p>One more point. While the consensus seems to think that China will eke out positive economic growth in 2009, I think outright recession in China (as some have suggested here) is highly likely. Since, as has been widely reported, Chinese electricity use has been falling, year-on- year, it is hard to believe that the economy is growing much; government doctoring of output statistics is more likely in my opinion. Furthermore, in an economy that recorded breakneck growth for so many years that also contained a very large state-owned sector, there were bound to be huge mistakes in capital allocation that will be revealed as output falls. The large number of Chinese toy factories that have shut down for lack of US demand are an example of this; no doubt more will become obvious. As Warren Buffett says, &#8220;When the tide goes out you learn who has been swimming naked.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2009/01/chinese-factory-output-employment-falls.html#comment-30992</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Jan 2009 00:56:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>If India was not there, China could pick up what they provide and stabilize output no?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If India was not there, China could pick up what they provide and stabilize output no?</p>
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		<title>By: Glen</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2009/01/chinese-factory-output-employment-falls.html#comment-30989</link>
		<dc:creator>Glen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Jan 2009 00:24:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2009/01/chinese-factory-output-employment-falls-at-record-pace/#comment-30989</guid>
		<description>Anon 958 - &quot;We need to send the Bernanke squadron to China, loaded with yuan, pronto.&quot; They might not be very creative but smart enough to know that Bernnanke &amp; Co. have created one big mess and no exit.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anon 958 &#8211; &quot;We need to send the Bernanke squadron to China, loaded with yuan, pronto.&quot; They might not be very creative but smart enough to know that Bernnanke &amp; Co. have created one big mess and no exit.</p>
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		<title>By: Waldo</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2009/01/chinese-factory-output-employment-falls.html#comment-30987</link>
		<dc:creator>Waldo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Jan 2009 23:27:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&quot;A convertible yuan pegged to gold&quot;&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;This is inversely equivalent to pegging the dollar. No better off.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;The current economic global strategy China has been deploying is sound (if a little painful for American eggheads to be comfortable with); it is congruent with a venture capitalist funding a hard working entreprenuer (VC&#039;s are vicious bastards).  They are peggy the Dollar at a level below par (global dollar value) to keep exports robust.  By keeping it low they are getting the intrinsic value from their laborers back instead of from a financial source to get the new venture off the ground. Brilliant. The labor productivity of its people will be the near term solution for its steady course through this temporary Typhoon that is justing getting ashore.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Modigliani-Miller Theory says it plainly - &quot;work hard and the free cash flows are all that is really important - financial jargon and debt is for bored lazy 1st rate economies&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;A convertible yuan pegged to gold&#8221;</p>
<p>This is inversely equivalent to pegging the dollar. No better off.</p>
<p>The current economic global strategy China has been deploying is sound (if a little painful for American eggheads to be comfortable with); it is congruent with a venture capitalist funding a hard working entreprenuer (VC&#8217;s are vicious bastards).  They are peggy the Dollar at a level below par (global dollar value) to keep exports robust.  By keeping it low they are getting the intrinsic value from their laborers back instead of from a financial source to get the new venture off the ground. Brilliant. The labor productivity of its people will be the near term solution for its steady course through this temporary Typhoon that is justing getting ashore.</p>
<p>Modigliani-Miller Theory says it plainly &#8211; &#8220;work hard and the free cash flows are all that is really important &#8211; financial jargon and debt is for bored lazy 1st rate economies&#8221;</p>
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