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	<title>Comments on: Dividends: What the Bank Giveth, the Bank Now Taketh Away</title>
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		<title>By: Richard Kline</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2009/01/dividends-what-bank-giveth-bank-now.html#comment-31837</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Kline</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Jan 2009 07:40:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>john bougearel:  &quot; . . .[I}t just underscores the incredible difficulty of competing on the same playing field when the damn wage gap between developing and developed countries are so wide and widening.&quot;  No, I do not buy this argument.  It has been oft repeated, and enough of it is true for it to get traction, but at its core, john, it is _totally bogus_.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;It is true that as economies mature, labor intensive manufacturing becomes uneconomical _as mass primary employers_.  One sees this in the UK, in Deutschland, in Japan, in Hong Kong.  There is enough of this dynamic, the ceding of labor-intensive, low value-added manufacturing to more peripheral economies, to demonstrate a real vector.  So yes, the US was certain to lose some labor-intensive manufacturing over the 1950-2000 period.  This did not have to be to E Asia; it could have been to Latin America, for example, and in fact significant production migration _has_ occured there, to Mexico, Brazil, and even Colombia, Peru, and Salvador.  &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;It was not necessary for the US to cede all of its chip plants to East Asia.  It was not necessary for the US to cede all of its finished textile plants to other locations.  It was not necessary for the US to lose as much of the machine tool industry as it has.  It was not necessary for the US to let both its rail freight lines and the manufacturing capacity to retain them severely erode.  We didn&#039;t have to cede all of our mobile phone manufacturing to other countries.  &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;. . . But it would have taken an explicit industrial policy to support training, wages, and market share for onshore concerns.  Something else also missing from the &#039;We can&#039;t compete&#039; line is that quality and sourcing of products really _do_ count, but is was exactly in quality in many of the above areas that American industrial management FLOPPED MISERABLY in the 1960-90 period.  We had the ability; we did not have the execution.  We were late on inventory controls, for example.  There was a lot of talk about how we would maintain the [white collar] engineering and software design shops, and so control the process.  The counterargument, which is completely winning the game, now, is that you can&#039;t control the soft engineering if you don&#039;t control the hard engineering:  we are losing gradually in the areas where we thought we had a multi-generation advantage, to become no more than comeptitive at best.  And etc., and etc., but look, a national policy to retain some of this capacity together with pressure for the firms to actually excel at production could have been made BUT WASN&#039;T.  &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Instead, we got increased advertising, increased financial manipulation, and increased union-busting, i.e. efforts to wring profits from _non-production_ parameters.  THIS has been the American way for two generations.  It deserved to fail, has failed, and has left us in a much worse position than if we had built down core production rather than ceded competition.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>john bougearel:  &#8221; . . .[I}t just underscores the incredible difficulty of competing on the same playing field when the damn wage gap between developing and developed countries are so wide and widening."  No, I do not buy this argument.  It has been oft repeated, and enough of it is true for it to get traction, but at its core, john, it is _totally bogus_.</p>
<p>It is true that as economies mature, labor intensive manufacturing becomes uneconomical _as mass primary employers_.  One sees this in the UK, in Deutschland, in Japan, in Hong Kong.  There is enough of this dynamic, the ceding of labor-intensive, low value-added manufacturing to more peripheral economies, to demonstrate a real vector.  So yes, the US was certain to lose some labor-intensive manufacturing over the 1950-2000 period.  This did not have to be to E Asia; it could have been to Latin America, for example, and in fact significant production migration _has_ occured there, to Mexico, Brazil, and even Colombia, Peru, and Salvador.  </p>
<p>It was not necessary for the US to cede all of its chip plants to East Asia.  It was not necessary for the US to cede all of its finished textile plants to other locations.  It was not necessary for the US to lose as much of the machine tool industry as it has.  It was not necessary for the US to let both its rail freight lines and the manufacturing capacity to retain them severely erode.  We didn't have to cede all of our mobile phone manufacturing to other countries.  </p>
<p>. . . But it would have taken an explicit industrial policy to support training, wages, and market share for onshore concerns.  Something else also missing from the 'We can't compete' line is that quality and sourcing of products really _do_ count, but is was exactly in quality in many of the above areas that American industrial management FLOPPED MISERABLY in the 1960-90 period.  We had the ability; we did not have the execution.  We were late on inventory controls, for example.  There was a lot of talk about how we would maintain the [white collar] engineering and software design shops, and so control the process.  The counterargument, which is completely winning the game, now, is that you can&#8217;t control the soft engineering if you don&#8217;t control the hard engineering:  we are losing gradually in the areas where we thought we had a multi-generation advantage, to become no more than comeptitive at best.  And etc., and etc., but look, a national policy to retain some of this capacity together with pressure for the firms to actually excel at production could have been made BUT WASN&#8217;T.  </p>
<p>Instead, we got increased advertising, increased financial manipulation, and increased union-busting, i.e. efforts to wring profits from _non-production_ parameters.  THIS has been the American way for two generations.  It deserved to fail, has failed, and has left us in a much worse position than if we had built down core production rather than ceded competition.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2009/01/dividends-what-bank-giveth-bank-now.html#comment-31809</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Jan 2009 23:04:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2009/01/dividends-what-the-bank-giveth-the-bank-now-taketh-away/#comment-31809</guid>
		<description>&quot;Think of the firm as a gigantic tub of whole milk. The farmer can sell the whole milk as is. Or he can separate out the cream and sell it at a considerably higher price than the whole milk would bring. (That&#039;s the analog of a firm selling low-yield and hence high-priced debt securities.) But, of course, what the farmer would have left would be skim milk with low butterfat content and that would sell for much less than whole milk. That corresponds to the levered equity. The M and M proposition says that if there were no costs of separation (and, of course, no government dairy-support programs), the cream plus the skim milk would bring the same price as the whole milk.&quot;&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;If you want to lever up the firm to pay out dividends and conduct sharebuy backs...the resulting equity in the firm is going to be that much more risky!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Think of the firm as a gigantic tub of whole milk. The farmer can sell the whole milk as is. Or he can separate out the cream and sell it at a considerably higher price than the whole milk would bring. (That&#8217;s the analog of a firm selling low-yield and hence high-priced debt securities.) But, of course, what the farmer would have left would be skim milk with low butterfat content and that would sell for much less than whole milk. That corresponds to the levered equity. The M and M proposition says that if there were no costs of separation (and, of course, no government dairy-support programs), the cream plus the skim milk would bring the same price as the whole milk.&#8221;</p>
<p>If you want to lever up the firm to pay out dividends and conduct sharebuy backs&#8230;the resulting equity in the firm is going to be that much more risky!</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2009/01/dividends-what-bank-giveth-bank-now.html#comment-31805</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Jan 2009 22:25:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>What might the effect of non-cash expenses be on this analysis?  Norris has used net income which is net of all kinds on non0cash items.  Notably, stock option expensing became mandatory in the period in question.  I agree that this looks bad, but it may not be as bad as it appears at first blush.&lt;br/&gt;The analysis should be done with an eye to the cash flow statement.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Love the blog, Yves.  Keep up the good work!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What might the effect of non-cash expenses be on this analysis?  Norris has used net income which is net of all kinds on non0cash items.  Notably, stock option expensing became mandatory in the period in question.  I agree that this looks bad, but it may not be as bad as it appears at first blush.<br />The analysis should be done with an eye to the cash flow statement.</p>
<p>Love the blog, Yves.  Keep up the good work!</p>
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		<title>By: S</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2009/01/dividends-what-bank-giveth-bank-now.html#comment-31798</link>
		<dc:creator>S</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Jan 2009 19:19:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2009/01/dividends-what-the-bank-giveth-the-bank-now-taketh-away/#comment-31798</guid>
		<description>Buybacks were Wall Street&#039;s answer to retaining capital for management&#039;s discretion. Buybacks have always been a “creative” solution for management to pretend they are putting shareholders first. Dividends are sticky and hence impose a discipline on the management team. The low interest rate environment created a massive incentive for bankers to pitch leverage recap, which became a cottage industry. The earnings tailwind from “accretive” buybacks is yet another manifestation of artificially low interest rates. So what do we get now? Of course if you can’t grow revenue and you can’t grow margins and you can’t lower interest costs well then you lower the tax rate. This is as old a trick on Wall Street as there is. So it is not surprising that the proposed tax plan in the stimulus embeds tax breaks. The move down the income statement is a striking parallel to the web our “intelligence” economy finds itself caught in.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Buybacks were Wall Street&#8217;s answer to retaining capital for management&#8217;s discretion. Buybacks have always been a “creative” solution for management to pretend they are putting shareholders first. Dividends are sticky and hence impose a discipline on the management team. The low interest rate environment created a massive incentive for bankers to pitch leverage recap, which became a cottage industry. The earnings tailwind from “accretive” buybacks is yet another manifestation of artificially low interest rates. So what do we get now? Of course if you can’t grow revenue and you can’t grow margins and you can’t lower interest costs well then you lower the tax rate. This is as old a trick on Wall Street as there is. So it is not surprising that the proposed tax plan in the stimulus embeds tax breaks. The move down the income statement is a striking parallel to the web our “intelligence” economy finds itself caught in.</p>
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		<title>By: doc holiday</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2009/01/dividends-what-bank-giveth-bank-now.html#comment-31797</link>
		<dc:creator>doc holiday</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Jan 2009 18:03:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Buybacks are always correlated to increases in option grants. If you think for one second that a buyback is going to add value to a stock, take a very close look at The S&amp;P 500 and Dow and then show me a stock that wasn&#039;t diluted from option grants.  The insiders will always come first and shareholders will always pay the piper!&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;I would guess that will be the next thing to watch, i.e, increased option grants across the board, to help the poor insiders, during this extended downturn.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Buybacks are always correlated to increases in option grants. If you think for one second that a buyback is going to add value to a stock, take a very close look at The S&amp;P 500 and Dow and then show me a stock that wasn&#39;t diluted from option grants.  The insiders will always come first and shareholders will always pay the piper!</p>
<p>I would guess that will be the next thing to watch, i.e, increased option grants across the board, to help the poor insiders, during this extended downturn.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2009/01/dividends-what-bank-giveth-bank-now.html#comment-31795</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Jan 2009 17:41:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Maybe, the public should be informed and thereby switch what&#039;s left of their money, 401ks etc. to  Fund managers who can prove they went for value investing rather than playing the casino games of recent years.  &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Too many of the &quot;professionals&quot; and their attorneys were in one these scams against the public and genuine investment. &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;As for banks, will take the long term steady interest rate on savings accounts of past years.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt; &lt;br/&gt;independent</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maybe, the public should be informed and thereby switch what&#8217;s left of their money, 401ks etc. to  Fund managers who can prove they went for value investing rather than playing the casino games of recent years.  </p>
<p>Too many of the &#8220;professionals&#8221; and their attorneys were in one these scams against the public and genuine investment. </p>
<p>As for banks, will take the long term steady interest rate on savings accounts of past years.</p>
<p>independent</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2009/01/dividends-what-bank-giveth-bank-now.html#comment-31794</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Jan 2009 16:53:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2009/01/dividends-what-the-bank-giveth-the-bank-now-taketh-away/#comment-31794</guid>
		<description>Where are the floodlights to shine on this stinking %&amp;@# so that the public gets a clue?&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;How is this behavior stopped?  Where are the consequences?  Where is the rule of law?&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Why is there not rioting in the streets over this?  When will there be?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Where are the floodlights to shine on this stinking %&amp;@# so that the public gets a clue?</p>
<p>How is this behavior stopped?  Where are the consequences?  Where is the rule of law?</p>
<p>Why is there not rioting in the streets over this?  When will there be?</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Smith</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2009/01/dividends-what-bank-giveth-bank-now.html#comment-31792</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Jan 2009 16:27:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2009/01/dividends-what-the-bank-giveth-the-bank-now-taketh-away/#comment-31792</guid>
		<description>Harris,&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Agree, and with interest rates so low over the last few years, equity funding has been relatively unattractive. The capital reconfiguration you describe can look rational.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;However, paying a dividend is (modulo shareholder pressure) optional. In the bad times, you can cut dividend payouts. Debt repayment isn&#039;t so optional. &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Secondly, you don&#039;t need to roll equity funding.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;I suppose if I was an insider who&#039;d cashed out over the years via option schemes I might be able to contemplate a revenue drop and seized up capital markets in a relaxed manner. &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Less congenial for other types of shareholder, methinks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Harris,</p>
<p>Agree, and with interest rates so low over the last few years, equity funding has been relatively unattractive. The capital reconfiguration you describe can look rational.</p>
<p>However, paying a dividend is (modulo shareholder pressure) optional. In the bad times, you can cut dividend payouts. Debt repayment isn&#8217;t so optional. </p>
<p>Secondly, you don&#8217;t need to roll equity funding.</p>
<p>I suppose if I was an insider who&#8217;d cashed out over the years via option schemes I might be able to contemplate a revenue drop and seized up capital markets in a relaxed manner. </p>
<p>Less congenial for other types of shareholder, methinks.</p>
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		<title>By: john bougearel</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2009/01/dividends-what-bank-giveth-bank-now.html#comment-31788</link>
		<dc:creator>john bougearel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Jan 2009 15:10:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2009/01/dividends-what-the-bank-giveth-the-bank-now-taketh-away/#comment-31788</guid>
		<description>RK, &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;I get your point about &quot;firms doing real business had to compete with firms riding bubble-boosted market parabolics&quot; squeezed them senseless if they did not behaviorally respond. &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;But it just underscores the incredible difficulty of competing on the same playing field when the damn wage gap between developing and developed countries are so wide and widening. Reversing the trajectory of that wage gap will go along way towards reducing global trade imbalances and disequilibrium and increasing consumer demand in the rest of the world (where consumer demand needs to grow most while our own consumer demand shrinks).  &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;and yes, conventional economic reasoning does not intersect with that reality. Conventional economic reasoning is too busy pursuing mistaken goals, hence they are busy ensuring undesirable outcomes. I would argue however, that the actual outcomes of these policies are not in conflict with the intended outcomes. Since we can see the possible actual outcomes and risks of these policies are not unforeseeable, they can not be said to be unintended. And that is galling.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>RK, </p>
<p>I get your point about &#8220;firms doing real business had to compete with firms riding bubble-boosted market parabolics&#8221; squeezed them senseless if they did not behaviorally respond. </p>
<p>But it just underscores the incredible difficulty of competing on the same playing field when the damn wage gap between developing and developed countries are so wide and widening. Reversing the trajectory of that wage gap will go along way towards reducing global trade imbalances and disequilibrium and increasing consumer demand in the rest of the world (where consumer demand needs to grow most while our own consumer demand shrinks).  </p>
<p>and yes, conventional economic reasoning does not intersect with that reality. Conventional economic reasoning is too busy pursuing mistaken goals, hence they are busy ensuring undesirable outcomes. I would argue however, that the actual outcomes of these policies are not in conflict with the intended outcomes. Since we can see the possible actual outcomes and risks of these policies are not unforeseeable, they can not be said to be unintended. And that is galling.</p>
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		<title>By: john bougearel</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2009/01/dividends-what-bank-giveth-bank-now.html#comment-31787</link>
		<dc:creator>john bougearel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Jan 2009 14:45:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2009/01/dividends-what-the-bank-giveth-the-bank-now-taketh-away/#comment-31787</guid>
		<description>NDK&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;&quot;there are structurally very few projects and investments in the U.S. economy that have a sufficiently positive return(a very low number, at this point) that they&#039;ll be undertaken. That structural pressure means deflationary forces will be stronger and investment will be low for a long time to come.&quot;&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;That is precisely how to read between the lines. There were no more positive return investments to be made in the past decade! It is amazing to ponder that statement for a moment. Every investment project to be made suitable for connecting with the global engine of growth (the US consumer) over the past 30 years had already been made. All of that investment to tap US consumer demand had gone towards increasing overseas production in developing countries. The overinvestment in overseas production guaranteed excess production/overcapacity, thereby ensuring deflationary/lower prices for years to come for the US consumer. &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Seeing no other engine of growth out there to pursue, what were the multinationals to do but to let the deflationary forces kick in and game the financial statements till the inevitable recession/depression set in. &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;The deflationary horizon must stretch as far as the eye can see if the captains of industry could find no positive return investments to make this past decade. Until a new engine of growth is in place, here we will sit in our deflationary squallor.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>NDK</p>
<p>&#8220;there are structurally very few projects and investments in the U.S. economy that have a sufficiently positive return(a very low number, at this point) that they&#8217;ll be undertaken. That structural pressure means deflationary forces will be stronger and investment will be low for a long time to come.&#8221;</p>
<p>That is precisely how to read between the lines. There were no more positive return investments to be made in the past decade! It is amazing to ponder that statement for a moment. Every investment project to be made suitable for connecting with the global engine of growth (the US consumer) over the past 30 years had already been made. All of that investment to tap US consumer demand had gone towards increasing overseas production in developing countries. The overinvestment in overseas production guaranteed excess production/overcapacity, thereby ensuring deflationary/lower prices for years to come for the US consumer. </p>
<p>Seeing no other engine of growth out there to pursue, what were the multinationals to do but to let the deflationary forces kick in and game the financial statements till the inevitable recession/depression set in. </p>
<p>The deflationary horizon must stretch as far as the eye can see if the captains of industry could find no positive return investments to make this past decade. Until a new engine of growth is in place, here we will sit in our deflationary squallor.</p>
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