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	<title>Comments on: Reality Intrusion</title>
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		<title>By: juan</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2009/07/reality-intrusion.html#comment-50181</link>
		<dc:creator>juan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jul 2009 02:03:54 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>generalized commodity production by wage labor within a legal-political regime of private property is a high level of abstraction?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;why assume workers councils and global production/distribution to be incompatible?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;the actually possible has never been static.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>generalized commodity production by wage labor within a legal-political regime of private property is a high level of abstraction?</p>
<p>why assume workers councils and global production/distribution to be incompatible?</p>
<p>the actually possible has never been static.</p>
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		<title>By: MacroStrategy Edge</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2009/07/reality-intrusion.html#comment-50156</link>
		<dc:creator>MacroStrategy Edge</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Jul 2009 21:02:39 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Juan - Yes, at some level of abstraction the characteristics of the economic system have remained somewhat intact over the past century and a half, but it is important to remember that is at a high level of abstraction. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Not sure how pre 1917 council communism deals with globalized, complex chains of production and distribution in a world of densely populated urban areas, and with firms and households relying on long horizon financial commitments, specialized labor, etc.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;We have to work with the world as it is,  or point to plausible transitions that people are willing and able to take on. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;For example, some people in the area I live in refer to themselves as locavores and attempt to eat food produced nearby, yet I doubt they would be willing to give up their morning coffee from Costa Rica. So it is important to think through what is actually possible given where we are today.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Regardless, maybe you are looking at an economy organized a along these lines (http://www.zcommunications.org/zparecon/pareconlac.htm).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Juan &#8211; Yes, at some level of abstraction the characteristics of the economic system have remained somewhat intact over the past century and a half, but it is important to remember that is at a high level of abstraction. </p>
<p>Not sure how pre 1917 council communism deals with globalized, complex chains of production and distribution in a world of densely populated urban areas, and with firms and households relying on long horizon financial commitments, specialized labor, etc.</p>
<p>We have to work with the world as it is,  or point to plausible transitions that people are willing and able to take on. </p>
<p>For example, some people in the area I live in refer to themselves as locavores and attempt to eat food produced nearby, yet I doubt they would be willing to give up their morning coffee from Costa Rica. So it is important to think through what is actually possible given where we are today.</p>
<p>Regardless, maybe you are looking at an economy organized a along these lines (<a href="http://www.zcommunications.org/zparecon/pareconlac.htm)." rel="nofollow">http://www.zcommunications.org/zparecon/pareconlac.htm).</a></p>
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		<title>By: MacroStrategy Edge</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2009/07/reality-intrusion.html#comment-50154</link>
		<dc:creator>MacroStrategy Edge</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Jul 2009 20:39:27 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>RTD - Looks like my response last night didn&#039;t make it, but I agree, those are elements worth retrieving from Austrian contributions. Am curious how you became familiar with this stuff, as you have a very good grasp of it, and it is off the beaten path for most people. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Most of all, without falling into the trap of &quot;money is just a veil for real exchange&quot;, I believe there is more room for bette mapping between financial and real sides of the economy. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Minsky made progress here, and from the Austrian side, I have found their emphasis on the actual structure of production - a mesoeconomic or Leontieff type of lens - helpful in realizing macro emphasis on aggregates can also conceal important consideration.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;And I agree, macro may need to be refooted as an asset based economics, rather than an income flow based analysis alone. Keynes was heading there, but the Keynesians ignored much of this. Minsky certainly thought along these lines, although cash flow commitments ultimately ruled his models, and there are some economists associated with the Levy Institute on coherent stock/flow modeling which is promising. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Drop me an e-mail address and I can send some links that you may find useful. There are few who are willing to explore these  alternative perspectives without all the polemics and ideological trappings that tend to come with them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>RTD &#8211; Looks like my response last night didn&#39;t make it, but I agree, those are elements worth retrieving from Austrian contributions. Am curious how you became familiar with this stuff, as you have a very good grasp of it, and it is off the beaten path for most people. </p>
<p>Most of all, without falling into the trap of &quot;money is just a veil for real exchange&quot;, I believe there is more room for bette mapping between financial and real sides of the economy. </p>
<p>Minsky made progress here, and from the Austrian side, I have found their emphasis on the actual structure of production &#8211; a mesoeconomic or Leontieff type of lens &#8211; helpful in realizing macro emphasis on aggregates can also conceal important consideration.</p>
<p>And I agree, macro may need to be refooted as an asset based economics, rather than an income flow based analysis alone. Keynes was heading there, but the Keynesians ignored much of this. Minsky certainly thought along these lines, although cash flow commitments ultimately ruled his models, and there are some economists associated with the Levy Institute on coherent stock/flow modeling which is promising. </p>
<p>Drop me an e-mail address and I can send some links that you may find useful. There are few who are willing to explore these  alternative perspectives without all the polemics and ideological trappings that tend to come with them.</p>
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		<title>By: juan</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2009/07/reality-intrusion.html#comment-50153</link>
		<dc:creator>juan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Jul 2009 20:18:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2009/07/reality-intrusion/#comment-50153</guid>
		<description>MSE,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Though become senile, the system which exists today is, beneath all the superficialities, the same set of social relations of production and REproduction which existed a century and a half ago. Any talk of &#039;a new global growth model&#039; must, at the least, recognize the capital system&#039;s historical relativity, its absolute limits, rather than constantly struggling to redefine and salvage the no longer progressive but become barbaric. Systems end, are - consciously and not - replaced. &lt;br /&gt;My &#039;new model&#039; preference would look towards traditions/practices of council communism [the &#039;infantile&#039; which Lenin railed against and destroyed after the 1917 revolution].</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>MSE,</p>
<p>Though become senile, the system which exists today is, beneath all the superficialities, the same set of social relations of production and REproduction which existed a century and a half ago. Any talk of &#39;a new global growth model&#39; must, at the least, recognize the capital system&#39;s historical relativity, its absolute limits, rather than constantly struggling to redefine and salvage the no longer progressive but become barbaric. Systems end, are &#8211; consciously and not &#8211; replaced. <br />My &#39;new model&#39; preference would look towards traditions/practices of council communism [the &#39;infantile&#39; which Lenin railed against and destroyed after the 1917 revolution].</p>
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		<title>By: MacroStrategy Edge</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2009/07/reality-intrusion.html#comment-50133</link>
		<dc:creator>MacroStrategy Edge</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Jul 2009 14:54:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2009/07/reality-intrusion/#comment-50133</guid>
		<description>Alon - I understand Calomiris&#039; point conceptually. We all need shelter. If the value of our currently owned shelter goes up, then the price of our next purchase goes up, unless we trade down in quantity, quality, or go to renting. But as a practical matter, there are few other ways of explaining unprecedented household deficit spending during the first most of this decade unless we acknowledge that households were monetizing and consuming the capital gains, realized or unrealized, in their real estate holdings. It was a mug&#039;s game, but it was a game that was played nonetheless. So this comes back to my original problem with contemporary macro - it is out of touch with the practical realities that matter to the economic outcomes we experience.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Juan - Yes, Marx had something to say about the role of finance in the evolution of the economy. And there is a need for a new global growth model, as I argued in the post. The point is to figure out practical steps that can be taken in that respect. Quoting dead economists about why the system in place a century and a half ago would eventually fail doesn&#039;t get us there.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Todd - There is a strong emphasis on independent action in Austrian School contributions, no doubt. Personally, I think taking responsibility for one&#039;s actions and one&#039;s life is a good place to start, but it goes too far if it then leads to the notion we are all atomistic individuals, with no interdependence. But that&#039;s just my particular mental fetish.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Alon &#8211; I understand Calomiris&#39; point conceptually. We all need shelter. If the value of our currently owned shelter goes up, then the price of our next purchase goes up, unless we trade down in quantity, quality, or go to renting. But as a practical matter, there are few other ways of explaining unprecedented household deficit spending during the first most of this decade unless we acknowledge that households were monetizing and consuming the capital gains, realized or unrealized, in their real estate holdings. It was a mug&#39;s game, but it was a game that was played nonetheless. So this comes back to my original problem with contemporary macro &#8211; it is out of touch with the practical realities that matter to the economic outcomes we experience.</p>
<p>Juan &#8211; Yes, Marx had something to say about the role of finance in the evolution of the economy. And there is a need for a new global growth model, as I argued in the post. The point is to figure out practical steps that can be taken in that respect. Quoting dead economists about why the system in place a century and a half ago would eventually fail doesn&#39;t get us there.</p>
<p>Todd &#8211; There is a strong emphasis on independent action in Austrian School contributions, no doubt. Personally, I think taking responsibility for one&#39;s actions and one&#39;s life is a good place to start, but it goes too far if it then leads to the notion we are all atomistic individuals, with no interdependence. But that&#39;s just my particular mental fetish.</p>
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		<title>By: Alon</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2009/07/reality-intrusion.html#comment-50101</link>
		<dc:creator>Alon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Jul 2009 01:52:45 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I&#039;m sorry, But I cant ignore a few statements from your post. I have no skin in this (childish if you ask me) game of denouncing certain schools of macroeconomic thought as charlatans or worse. By summing up their paper as &quot;concluded the US housing bubble had little effect on consumer spending patterns&quot; not only ignores the whole point of the paper but also does so in an irresponsible ingenious manner. the paper specifically talks about the ambiguous effects of changes in housing wealth on consumption. This makes intuitive economic sense as for every seller there must a buyer who is willing to provide more of their future income to buy the house. However since we must all live somewhere a rise in the price of housing on net cannot enrich any of us. Raising prices of ANY good signal rising scarcity, which certainly cannot indicate a net economic rise in wealth. When oil prices rise, commissions are created to investigate &quot;excessive speculation&quot; while a rise in housing is considered a forbearance of a new nirvana. the &quot;housing bubble&quot; as you call it is a far more comprehensive topic covering many other aspects of the economy that occured during the same time (i.e. finance, housing construction, future expected earnings, etc.) that the authors of the paper do not dismiss as capable of raising consumption.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#39;m sorry, But I cant ignore a few statements from your post. I have no skin in this (childish if you ask me) game of denouncing certain schools of macroeconomic thought as charlatans or worse. By summing up their paper as &quot;concluded the US housing bubble had little effect on consumer spending patterns&quot; not only ignores the whole point of the paper but also does so in an irresponsible ingenious manner. the paper specifically talks about the ambiguous effects of changes in housing wealth on consumption. This makes intuitive economic sense as for every seller there must a buyer who is willing to provide more of their future income to buy the house. However since we must all live somewhere a rise in the price of housing on net cannot enrich any of us. Raising prices of ANY good signal rising scarcity, which certainly cannot indicate a net economic rise in wealth. When oil prices rise, commissions are created to investigate &quot;excessive speculation&quot; while a rise in housing is considered a forbearance of a new nirvana. the &quot;housing bubble&quot; as you call it is a far more comprehensive topic covering many other aspects of the economy that occured during the same time (i.e. finance, housing construction, future expected earnings, etc.) that the authors of the paper do not dismiss as capable of raising consumption.</p>
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		<title>By: juan</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2009/07/reality-intrusion.html#comment-50100</link>
		<dc:creator>juan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Jul 2009 01:43:41 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Short quote from the third volume of Capital:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;i&gt;The credit system appears as the main lever of over-production and over-speculation in commerce solely because the reproduction process, which is elastic by nature, is here forced to its extreme limits, and is so forced because a large part of the social capital is employed by people who do not own it and who consequently tackle things quite differently than the owner, who anxiously weighs the limitations of his private capital in so far as he handles it himself. This simply demonstrates the fact that the self-expansion of capital based on the contradictory nature of capitalist production permits an actual free development only up to a certain point, so that in fact it constitutes an immanent fetter and barrier to production, which are continually broken through by the credit system.[4] Hence, the credit system accelerates the material development of the productive forces and the establishment of the world-market. It is the historical mission of the capitalist system of production to raise these material foundations of the new mode of production to a certain degree of perfection. At the same time credit accelerates the violent eruptions of this contradiction — crises — and thereby the elements of disintegration of the old mode of production.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The two characteristics immanent in the credit system are, on the one hand, to develop the incentive of capitalist production, enrichment through exploitation of the labour of others, to the purest and most colossal form of gambling and swindling, and to reduce more and more the number of the few who exploit the social wealth; on the other hand, to constitute the form of transition to a new mode of production. It is this ambiguous nature, which endows the principal spokesmen of credit from Law to Isaac Péreire with the pleasant character mixture of swindler and prophet.&lt;/i&gt;&lt;br /&gt;[Written sometime between 1863 and 1867]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Short quote from the third volume of Capital:</p>
<p><i>The credit system appears as the main lever of over-production and over-speculation in commerce solely because the reproduction process, which is elastic by nature, is here forced to its extreme limits, and is so forced because a large part of the social capital is employed by people who do not own it and who consequently tackle things quite differently than the owner, who anxiously weighs the limitations of his private capital in so far as he handles it himself. This simply demonstrates the fact that the self-expansion of capital based on the contradictory nature of capitalist production permits an actual free development only up to a certain point, so that in fact it constitutes an immanent fetter and barrier to production, which are continually broken through by the credit system.[4] Hence, the credit system accelerates the material development of the productive forces and the establishment of the world-market. It is the historical mission of the capitalist system of production to raise these material foundations of the new mode of production to a certain degree of perfection. At the same time credit accelerates the violent eruptions of this contradiction — crises — and thereby the elements of disintegration of the old mode of production.</p>
<p>The two characteristics immanent in the credit system are, on the one hand, to develop the incentive of capitalist production, enrichment through exploitation of the labour of others, to the purest and most colossal form of gambling and swindling, and to reduce more and more the number of the few who exploit the social wealth; on the other hand, to constitute the form of transition to a new mode of production. It is this ambiguous nature, which endows the principal spokesmen of credit from Law to Isaac Péreire with the pleasant character mixture of swindler and prophet.</i><br />[Written sometime between 1863 and 1867]</p>
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		<title>By: Todd Wood</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2009/07/reality-intrusion.html#comment-50096</link>
		<dc:creator>Todd Wood</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Jul 2009 00:22:53 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>What is the difference between Austrian economics and wolf-pack mentality?  It is good for the young, healthy and strong, but sucks for everyone else.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;It is really just another mental fetish, like all ideologies.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What is the difference between Austrian economics and wolf-pack mentality?  It is good for the young, healthy and strong, but sucks for everyone else.</p>
<p>It is really just another mental fetish, like all ideologies.</p>
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		<title>By: The Rude One</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2009/07/reality-intrusion.html#comment-50095</link>
		<dc:creator>The Rude One</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jul 2009 23:18:58 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Unfortunately the current conjuncture will fail to settle the debate. What&#039;s coming will not reconcile the various schools but will likely face condemnation from all: The &quot;public-private solution&quot; is almost inevitable in a politicized economy. The parameters are wide: wage controls, cartelization, rationing, state-mandated investment, exchange controls, etc. Now before you say anything, remember these days such measures are not &#039;national socialism&#039;. Rather, they are the &quot;Asian model of development.&quot; The only limit being the outer limits of sovereign default. Will the situation deteriorate to the point that any of these is tried? Quien sabe? But perhaps the entire ground of the debate will have to change.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Unfortunately the current conjuncture will fail to settle the debate. What&#39;s coming will not reconcile the various schools but will likely face condemnation from all: The &quot;public-private solution&quot; is almost inevitable in a politicized economy. The parameters are wide: wage controls, cartelization, rationing, state-mandated investment, exchange controls, etc. Now before you say anything, remember these days such measures are not &#39;national socialism&#39;. Rather, they are the &quot;Asian model of development.&quot; The only limit being the outer limits of sovereign default. Will the situation deteriorate to the point that any of these is tried? Quien sabe? But perhaps the entire ground of the debate will have to change.</p>
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		<title>By: RTD</title>
		<link>http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2009/07/reality-intrusion.html#comment-50094</link>
		<dc:creator>RTD</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jul 2009 22:38:44 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>MacroStrategy - IMO, the ONLY things of value within Austrian economics are 1) Schumpeter&#039;s depiction of creative destruction and technological progress 2) Hayek&#039;s depiction of markets as mechanisms for processing information and 3) Kirner&#039;s depiction of entrepreneurs as playing the central role WRT 1 &amp; 2.  Virtually everything else can be discarded - their methodology (praxeology as radical a priorism), their business cycle theory (which relies on incoherent concepts like the natural rate of interest and the average period of production), their subjectivist value theory, and most of all their political ideology.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;As far as Minsky goes - IMO, his biggest contribution was NOT the Financial Instability Hypothesis, but rather his basic insight that before production can even take place, real investment must take place and before real investment can take place that investment must be financed, and thus it is the structure of these financial arrangements that determine the state of the economy.  This element of financing investment for future production is completely missing from neoclassical models of production as the instantaneous exchange of factors for finished goods.  The simplest way of saying this is that mainstream economics is completely focused on the income statement and completely ignorant of the balance sheet.  Richard Koo is adding a lot of insight here with his work (though he seems largely ignorant or dismissive of Minsky for some reason).&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;--RueTheDay</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>MacroStrategy &#8211; IMO, the ONLY things of value within Austrian economics are 1) Schumpeter&#39;s depiction of creative destruction and technological progress 2) Hayek&#39;s depiction of markets as mechanisms for processing information and 3) Kirner&#39;s depiction of entrepreneurs as playing the central role WRT 1 &amp; 2.  Virtually everything else can be discarded &#8211; their methodology (praxeology as radical a priorism), their business cycle theory (which relies on incoherent concepts like the natural rate of interest and the average period of production), their subjectivist value theory, and most of all their political ideology.</p>
<p>As far as Minsky goes &#8211; IMO, his biggest contribution was NOT the Financial Instability Hypothesis, but rather his basic insight that before production can even take place, real investment must take place and before real investment can take place that investment must be financed, and thus it is the structure of these financial arrangements that determine the state of the economy.  This element of financing investment for future production is completely missing from neoclassical models of production as the instantaneous exchange of factors for finished goods.  The simplest way of saying this is that mainstream economics is completely focused on the income statement and completely ignorant of the balance sheet.  Richard Koo is adding a lot of insight here with his work (though he seems largely ignorant or dismissive of Minsky for some reason).</p>
<p>&#8211;RueTheDay</p>
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