Monday, October 17, 2011

Dylan Ratigan on the Political Efforts to Hijack #OccupyWallStreet

Dylan Ratigan interviews David DeGraw about the political impact of Occupy Wall Street, and Bill Black joins to discuss legal strategies.

Visit msnbc.com for breaking news, world news, and news about the economy

A related segment discusses whether Obama really means what he says when he voices support for Occupy Wall Street. Given Obama’s track record, the default assumption is that Obama does not mean what he says until proven otherwise.

Visit msnbc.com for breaking news, world news, and news about the economy

Topics: Income disparity, Legal, Politics, Social values, The destruction of the middle class

Email This Post Email This Post Posted by Yves Smith at 6:21 pm

85 Comments » Links to this post

85 Comments:

  • Glen says:
    October 17, 2011 at 6:26 pm

    I just watched this segment and an very skeptical that Obama supports any real reform. OWS would be very foolish to trust Obama. He is part of the problem – not the solution.

    • TK421 says:
      October 17, 2011 at 9:09 pm

      I could not agree more.

    • Brett says:
      October 17, 2011 at 11:20 pm

      It’s absolutely sickening listening to Obama try to guess what Martin Luther King Jr. would say if he were alive today.

      MLK would not be an Obama fan. Obama is a war zealot, and MLK was a person motivated for peace and justice. Obama refused to prosecute any of the Bush officials who started illegal wars or who approved the use of torture. Obama has either started or expanded 5 wars since he’s been in office. Yet Obama continues to try to position himself as on MLK’s side. It’s disgusting.

      • Observer says:
        October 19, 2011 at 8:10 pm

        If you think only one party is at fault here, think again. The only way change will happen is to vote out both of these crooked parties and get an independent in.

    • Gary Anderson says:
      October 19, 2011 at 11:03 am

      There is no question that he is part of the problem. However, going forward, the Republicans are a much bigger problem. Their association with hedge funds who want to stay off the systemic risk list is powerful. Those hedge funds have thrown in with Cantor and his cronies. Watch out for Republican housing bubbles going forward!

  • citalopram says:
    October 17, 2011 at 7:07 pm

    If Obomba does mean what he says, it’s only because it’s re-election time, and he’s in campaign mode to pander to his base.

    • ratso says:
      October 18, 2011 at 1:18 am

      As a wise man once said, “Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice … Won’t get fooled again.”

  • gs_runsthiscountry says:
    October 17, 2011 at 7:28 pm

    Only 386 more days until the most irrelevant event in 2012 happens, the presidential election.

    I can’t imagine anyone getting behind any of the current crop of candidates or the current POTUS. It doesn’t matter what end of the political spectrum you are, they are all dangerous. Obama=lost cause, Cain 9-9-9=aka we must dismantle SS and Medicare to get there, Ron Paul=Peter Schiff= pull the plug on min wage in this country. I could go on, but why bother. Every one of them has umbilical cords attached to some PAC or special interest, which, continues to feed them a steady supply of dangerous polices to pursue. And, these are the same ones that feed the Electoral College anyway.

    I already know my presidential slot on the ballot will either be blank, or a write-in. I will focus my voting energies at the local level. There is more than enough for voters to contend with at the city, county and state level in my opinion.

    • Bill says:
      October 17, 2011 at 10:41 pm

      After watching the first video above, I’ll write in Bill Black.

      • Tony says:
        October 17, 2011 at 11:25 pm

        I think I’ll go with “The King of the Lizard People.”

        • Randy says:
          October 19, 2011 at 5:32 pm

          Putin, himself, is an oligarch. It’s just that he won the battle as top dog. Gasprom was the top prize, he simply booted the fellow who tried to keep it for himself. The remaining ex-Red Army billionaires (a/o mafia types) are simply on Vlady’s good side. This is no different than any prior Russian or Soviet hardline dictator from history.

      • SidFinster says:
        October 18, 2011 at 8:16 am

        I am voting V.V. Putin. He brought some uncommonly vicious oligarchs to heel in the Russian Federation, maybe he can do the same for ours?

    • JasonRines says:
      October 17, 2011 at 11:21 pm

      Exactly GS. I’ll voting nationally when my vote actual matters. Right now I might as well be cheering the Patriots from the back of the top right corner of the bleachers.

      As the municipalities are already collapsing, leadership actual makes a difference. Cycles influence these times and right now the cycle is decentralization. As we finish the collapse and the new supposed capitalist god of China fails I will put real effort into national politics.

      How a Banana Republic slowly peels itself is of no further interest to me. You show up in my city to rob us we know what to do and capitulation will be the last consideration.

  • Ishmael says:
    October 17, 2011 at 7:32 pm

    gs_runsthiscountry I agree with you totally. I did not vote in the last presidential election for the first time since I started voting in 1972. I felt voting was like acting like a trained chimp to pull the lever.

    Really instead of marching on Wall Street they should be marching on Congress, Senate, White House and especially the Fed!

    • gs_runsthiscountry says:
      October 17, 2011 at 7:50 pm

      yep, I have done write-ins many of times over the years. And, I always get lectured how I am wasting my time or vote…

      I am not that old, I am patiently waiting for say 15-20% of this country to take on a protest vote. Waiting for people to actually take the time to go to the booth and do a write-in. I believe that would be a shot across the bow of the political spectrum that everyone would have to take notice of. That would signal people are paying attention, which might acctually draw out viable candidates to run for office. We have choice, we have the choice not to choose what is put on the ballot.

      In the meantime,I refuse to vote for people I know will continue to create more collateral damage across this country. I will not play the lesser of two evils game, because it’s obvious that does not work.

      • theadr says:
        October 17, 2011 at 8:38 pm

        We should be able to vote “No Confidence” and if that is the majority, then those candidates are no longer eligible for the next round. I don’t care about any power vacuum from the lack of elected leaders.

    • aletheia33 says:
      October 17, 2011 at 8:03 pm

      dc is currently being not only marched on, but occupied, at the time of this posting:
      http://occupydc.org/

      members of occupydc have been arrested for civil disobedience at the senate building. cornel west was arrested with 18 others on saturday while protesting on the steps of the supreme court (which you don’t mention on your list of recommended protest targets).

      watch, listen, and learn. (and be sure not to actually do anything–just issue directions.)

      • Ishmael says:
        October 17, 2011 at 11:09 pm

        While you were sitting around not knowing what was going on, I was protesting the bail out of the banks by TARP and even paid for a press release against it. Ended up getting several interviews including one by Le Monde. They kept asking me wasn’t I scared. I thought they meant about the economy but they really meant about taking such a vocal position against the powers that be!

  • Mark C says:
    October 17, 2011 at 7:44 pm

    “Given Obama’s track record, the default assumption is that Obama does not mean what he says until proven otherwise.”

    Amen to that.

    The dude lied through his teeth and said he would filibuster immunity for lawbreaking/constitution crapping telecommunications companies, did a complete 180 and voted for that very thing, BEFORE HE WAS EVEN ELECTED PRESIDENT.

    Tells you all you need to know about the uselessness of the words coming form this dirtbag’s mouth…

  • Daniel Hewitt says:
    October 17, 2011 at 7:49 pm

    Great interview. The Tea Party was co-opted by the Establishment Right; hopefully OWS will learn from that and resist the establishment Left’s efforts to co-opt it. Ratigan’s opening comments were dead on….this should not be viewed through a left-right prism.

    • CaitlinO says:
      October 17, 2011 at 9:59 pm

      OWS has definitely reached its JAWS moment.

      Everyone has now heard of it, everyone now knows it’s circling around out there but, to stay safe from those who would turn OWS to their own purposes:

      We’re gonna need a bigger protest.

    • Aaron Frietag says:
      October 17, 2011 at 10:20 pm

      Sure, there are some legal and moral issues, but this IS a left-right issue, just not a Democrat-Republican issue. People at OWS are not just angry as dishonest, fraudulent rich bankers vs honest ones, but at the growing economic inequality. They want to tax the rich and corporations, create more jobs for working people, and work towards a living wage, reduction of business influence in government, and increase in people’s control over their communities and workplace. Is not that what the left has traditionally championed?

    • Aaron F says:
      October 17, 2011 at 10:29 pm

      Also, the tea party was not so much “co-opted by the establishment right,” but set up and bankrolled by them. Remember early after the Obama election, the GOP seemed totally discredited. They had to start off outside, from a few crazy right-wing radio shows, and then the astro-turf Tea Party. The Occupy Wall Street phenomena only started when Obama’s base finally got fed up with him, and joined in with the tiny handful of young leftists who had been trying this all along.
      OWS will have to be co-opted at some point, if only because so far they have a deep and broad critique and want a better world, not just a few demands for reforms. There are anarchist, socialist, and syndicalist revolutionaries among the broader group of core members. That is the fate of social movements (short of revolution, and even including many of those). The question is at what point will it be co-opted and by what.

      • JasonRines says:
        October 17, 2011 at 11:44 pm

        How old are you? You seem a bit naive. Power is only shared when tbose that hold it very much fear losing it all. This is whistling past the graveyard. The first American Republic is already a zombie. Should have paid attention to Madison, Jefferson, Jackson and Kenney about who should control the currency. Left-Right paradigm purposely ignores door number three and enforces bi-polarity. Hell, we have been in 3d paradigm for 10,000 years but we all must devolve to bi-polar2d model? Hey your banker overlord loves ya pal for choosing a 2d model invented 150,000 years ago.

        Sorry to be so harsh but wake the hell up and cut the shit thinking bi-polarity is somehow a useful pyschology. If your doctor told you that yoh were bi-polar would this actually good news?

        Hey liberals, you were cheapskates so you got Fascism. Hey conservatives. You didn’t stop the executives from killing lots of brown skinned people forty+ years and also supported Fascism.

        Lets try Capitalism for friggin once. I am done

  • KnotRP says:
    October 17, 2011 at 8:02 pm

    Second video starts with an ad for GMC (Government Motors) 0% financing for 60 months plus $1000 cash back.

    ROTFLMAO

    • skippy says:
      October 17, 2011 at 9:25 pm

      Ditto…sub-prime…60mo becomes 120mo becomes 5yr..till boom!!!.

      Skippy…Houses…now POVs…food?

  • Economic Maverick says:
    October 17, 2011 at 8:38 pm

    I really hope the Black / Degraw interview becomes a turning point in the movement by putting not just “Wall Street”, but systemic “Wall Street fraud” front and center!

    I couldn’t believe how he called out Paul Krugman and the entire mainstream economics community for being too afraid to go “there” with regard to fraud. With Black now taking a higher profile as their de-facto attorney general, and the momentum that seems be building, it will be interesting to see if this goes exponential!

    • JasonRines says:
      October 18, 2011 at 12:06 am

      Hey lawyers, your whistling past the graveyard now too. And where the hell were you when 99% couldn’t afford justice? Couldn’t squeeze a pro-bono case off now and then? No! You left people like me to have to defend other people and I did it! Now I realize how much your class is part of the problem and same with bankers. Your entire profession relies on conflict to increase your wealth so you like the bankers encourage it. It is why your profession was banned from politics for a long time.

      When we are setting up the new Republic write what you think we need for a Constitution and then shedup. What profession are lobbyists again? I don’t care as much about Bill Black’s law degree or credentials. What I respect is his balls. He will never sell out. I used to feel there was merit in trying to work with your profession. Now I realize your as lazy and self-centered as speculators, lovin that volatility.

      The wild west was better than the kind of justice your class offers because it is the worst kind of hypocricy. Don’t expect me to cry any tears as you become carpet baggers in this country because when they came for me, your class had the nerve to support State and Federal Law that criminalized the citizenship. And your different and KNOW the law and spirit of the law was being violated and didn’t care. And as for the 200-300 bankers/financeers that rule this world for about a nano-second of history, “Lawyering up” will be so yesterday, burning your fingertips off and plastic surgery will be your new “rage”. You people have to rape to get laid. What a pathetic crop of losers.

      • HereYeGatherRound says:
        October 18, 2011 at 3:23 am

        i have had the misfortune to deal with many attys over the years for various matters, and it is my opinion that far too many of them are just lazy.

        if you cannot explain the entire case and tell them exactly where to get the money, in 60 seconds or less, they are not interested.

        i have had to hire attys purely to get ‘access’ and be taken credibly by the adverse party. i have then directed the attys, sometimes at odds with their own ‘understanding’ the law, and won. I’m three for three so far.

  • Skippy says:
    October 17, 2011 at 8:47 pm

    [Occupytimessquare] 1 Marine vs. 30 Cops (Marine Wins)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmEHcOc0Sys&feature=player_embedded

    Skippy…have nothing to add…

  • James Cole says:
    October 17, 2011 at 8:48 pm

    Obama said he stood behind the movement, and then proceeded to sign free trade agreements with S Korea, Panama & Colombia, what more do you need to know?

    • gs_runsthiscountry says:
      October 17, 2011 at 9:26 pm

      agreed…

      It is NAFTA all over again, in other words, another “one-way-trade” agreement. If this bill was so great, you have to ask yourself, why did they have to have HR 2832 to get it though?

      HR 2832, which extends Trade Adjustment Act (aka TAA and TRA) which is retraining assistance for workers who lose their jobs via quote “foreign competition.”

      It is an open admission they know its lost jobs.

  • Typing Monkey says:
    October 17, 2011 at 9:01 pm

    It is really too bad that Elizabeth Warren didn’t decide to primary against Obama. She’d have been getting incredible amount of press coverage by now…

    • Marley says:
      October 17, 2011 at 9:38 pm

      Agreed. Can someone get Elizabeth Warren, Bill Black and David De Graw in the same room??! That’s like some “Fellowship of the Ring” beginnings…
      /legolasismyhomey

    • aet says:
      October 18, 2011 at 5:43 am

      The Republicans’ ONLY hope for 2012 Presidential election is for heavy Democratic in-fighting, of the type you’ve just wished for. (And which Kennedy gave Carter in 1979 – how did that turn out for the progressives?: )

      That ain’t gonna happen ; you’ll have to find some other way to get a Republican back into the White House!

  • casino implosion says:
    October 17, 2011 at 9:10 pm

    I would not want to be sitting at a Congressional committee table across from Bill Black. He looks like an avenging spectre from the nineteenth century.

  • b says:
    October 17, 2011 at 9:11 pm

    I guess the question is : ” Hey Paul, are you prepared to call it fraud?” (Or are you just hitching your wagon to the latest movement having popular support?)

  • b says:
    October 17, 2011 at 9:28 pm

    The rest seems to have got lost;
    I agree with Bill Black(for that mater George W. Bush actually): it is necessary to take a position on this kind of matter and I applaud Bill Black for challenging Krugman to do so!
    Obviously the whole situation is complicated, some of the issues highlighted may or may not be illegal, but there is a difference between calling it a “fraud” and then explaining why some aspects may not be prosecutable and doing what Paul Krugman is doing currently; essentially calling legal but undesirable. As GW said:”your with us or you are against us!”, it´s a question of an honest opinion, obviously it´s difficult, but what side does Krugman want to analyze it from?

  • Marley says:
    October 17, 2011 at 9:35 pm

    Obama is useless. The Republicans don’t even want/need the White House anyway. Look at the parade of clowns they have put forward. They got nothin’! In order to carry on with their corporatist agenda, however, all they need is: Media $, Koch $, a majority in either House or Senate, and a few strategically placed governorships! Boom! I don’t want OWS co-opted by the Dems. I would <3 to see the MMT possee – not just Bill Black – but also Wray, Auerback, Mosler help OWS come up with a set of economic policies as well. In my #OWS wet dream, somebody gets Elizabeth Warren to embrace MMT and runs for president in 2012. I'd vote for her!!
    … and then I'd wake up. :-\

    • Economic Maverick says:
      October 18, 2011 at 12:20 am

      Well, in some ways, the #OWS debate is ALREADY primarying Obama! In some ways, they are evening primarying Republicans as well. The way the movement is changing the Overton Window of acceptable debate to put “inequality” on the table.

      As of right now, it’s all lip service and rhetoric, but even that’s a pretty big step.

      Regardless, I think there’s an argument that the movement is more effective than a specific person running a primary because in this case, it’s about the issues and principles of the movement, but if Liz Warren (Or anyone else) ran a primary, than it risks becoming more about the personalities and not the issues/principles

      • psychohistorian says:
        October 18, 2011 at 2:31 am

        AGREED!

        The longer the OWS folks don’t make specific demands the more the 1% and their stooges run around admitting and talking about problems that have been swept under the rug.

        The longer us 99% folks can retain focus on the issues and not on individuals trying to get in front of OWS and lead the better the eventual outcome.

  • Middle Seaman says:
    October 17, 2011 at 9:41 pm

    Replacing Geithner, Holder and Bernanke sure sounds nice, but it wont happen and even if it does we still have to deal with a criminal congress and a criminal president.

    There are plenty of potential solution to the 99% problem. Hopefully, not necessarily likely, new national leaders will emerge from the OWS movement with its different facets and locations.

    Currently, we have the biblical “desert generation” who took 40 years to die before entering the promised land. First the whole leadership of both parties has to go. (There are a handful of great guys the 99% can use: Sanders, Grijalva, etc.)

  • Jackrabbit says:
    October 17, 2011 at 10:02 pm

    The Democratic establishment has decided that what the protesters really want is jobs.

    The Republicans decided that what the Tea Party wanted was lower taxes.

    When OWS and the Tea Party work at cross purposes, the system is balanced and nothing changes.

    • Jackrabbit says:
      October 17, 2011 at 10:35 pm

      BTW, I am not a Tea Party-er.

      I think the KEY issue, which I think both the Tea Party Patriots and OWS can agree on is the ending the corrupt big company-government connection where big corporations get favors that allow them to make more money, which can be used to win more favors. (I’m not sure that they can agree on much else.)

      Government regulation keeps small firms from competing but the big firms use their excess profits to get favorable treatment. So my first choice is effective regulation, but my second choice is NO regulation – these big firms will fall hard if anti-competitive roadblocks were eliminated (and we’d have more jobs too).

      I’m at the ineffective regulators as I am at the bankers (an others) taking advantage of the system.

      • Jackrabbit says:
        October 17, 2011 at 10:36 pm

        That should be:

        I’m as angry at the ineffective regulators as I am at the bankers (an others) taking advantage of the system.

      • gs_runsthiscountry says:
        October 17, 2011 at 11:30 pm

        “I think the KEY issue, which I think both the Tea Party Patriots and OWS can agree on is the ending the corrupt big company-government connection where big corporations get favors that allow them to make more money, which can be used to win more favors. (I’m not sure that they can agree on much else.)”

        Sorry, jackrabbit, I don’t agree.

        That is the whole point of talking about hijacking and this post. You are using Tea Party and OWS in the same sentence, I don’t know why.

        Dick Army and his cohorts attached their wagon to the Tea Party a long time ago, I doubt there is much OWS and the Tea Party actually agree on.

        • Jackrabbit says:
          October 17, 2011 at 11:50 pm

          I think you’re right, the Tea Party as an organization will not join OWS.

          I should’ve been more clear. I think individuals in the Tea Party could/should join OWS because OWS is the only way I can see to ending the big company-government connection.

        • HereYeGatherRound says:
          October 18, 2011 at 1:04 am

          tp and ocws have infinitely more in common, but 95% of our media, pretty much owned by the same folks that own the banks, use extreme examples from either side to pit them against one another. there is no discussion, it is arguing and shouting that appeals to people based on their various fears, prejudices, and ignorance. some of them are dumb enough to go around repeating it. can you imagine?

          these two groups as a whole are much more representative of the 99; working folks, seniors, students, and some wealthy conservatives and liberals, (not part of the predator class) however many are left.

          its going to be difficult for teaparty to be taken seriously by ocws while they are bankrolled/directed by koch bros or its constructs.

          ocws is brilliant. they arent making demands, falling into all the media spin traps. they’ve released their ‘statements’ that simply give an account of what has happened to date. half the country still does not know the full story. winter is here, lots of time to read ;)

          dylan is smart. he knows there are financial, and regular folks, hungry for real news, and as he so aptly put it, a discussion of issues that has heretofore not taken place. its about time.

          there’s old saying, i dont remember exactly but is along this line;

          the bad thing about americans is how trustful they are. the good thing about americans is what they do when the trust is broken.

      • Jackrabbit says:
        October 17, 2011 at 11:45 pm

        Its really, really sad that its not enough to talk truth to power; that ordinary people have to band together to face down police goons, derisive commentary, political landmines and more to right a system that isn’t working as it should.

        • HereYeGatherRound says:
          October 18, 2011 at 2:08 am

          they diffused us for a while. our conscious collective mind/experience is reasserting itself, after a long hiatus of comprised of attacks, shopping sprees, shooting sprees, vacations, and now days of misery for too many.

          degraw could be the squeaky cleanest guy ever, but media specializes in ‘personalizing’ ideas. they’ll make up something if all else fails.

          i think it smart to keep it about the ideas, and not the author. but i certainly hope is in the loop.

          reuters has big bets by hedges made on PRIME housing.
          http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/10/15/us-markets-abs-idUSTRE79E0AF20111015

          so, those folks that were able to party on making hundreds of thousands, are now having problems. how sad and unfortunate they did not understand the ‘domino’ effect of the leverage at hand. i guess they will receive a crash course, shortly.

          one more chair removed from the money/credit musical chair game. yes, they’ll take yours, too!

          on the flip side, ows will most likely have some new fans.

      • psychohistorian says:
        October 18, 2011 at 2:36 am

        I disagree with your solution.

        IMO, there is only one structural change that will make a sustained difference.

        Laugh the global inherited rich out of control of our society and into rooms at the Hague.

  • chris says:
    October 17, 2011 at 11:02 pm

    hmmm… it seems msnbc has pulled both clips.

    • A says:
      October 17, 2011 at 11:23 pm

      Wow, i´ve seen that happening on russian televeision, never would have expected this for teh united states. Any bets on what the reason will be for him to have to give up his show? Scandal? Too low rating? Incipient press control is interesting to watch.

    • Jackrabbit says:
      October 17, 2011 at 11:29 pm

      I just tried both and they were working.

    • Yves Smith says:
      October 17, 2011 at 11:37 pm

      No, they are still up, just look on the left of this page, you’ll need to scroll down a smidge to see the first one.

      • chris says:
        October 18, 2011 at 2:26 am

        wow… for some reason neither video are showing for me on yves’ links here and after finding and watching the first at msnbc (w.Black), the second one disappeared from the scroll. weird… maybe i’m only allowed to see one scandalous interview at a time, heh…

        I’ll look again tomorrow…

  • Steve says:
    October 18, 2011 at 12:46 am

    Wow! This is what I’ve been praying for… to see these great people coming together! These are the leaders we so desperately need. These are the leaders who can stop the Global Mafia!

    In all my years reading both left and right pundits, Bill Black, David DeGraw, and Dilan Ratigan stand out way above the noise. Their message is so clear… we must stop the criminals who have hijacked our government and economy by restoring our system of Rule by Law… we must prosecute the Organized Criminal Global Mafia Elites, throw them in jail, and take back from them both our government and our economic resources.

    Just after Bill Black says “until the frauds are prosecuted, we’re never going to make progress”, David DeGraw invites William Black to be the “de facto Attorney General… the OWS’ Department of Justice”. Wow! I think I started to cry for joy! This would be true leadership. Oh how I pray the OWSers focus and amplify their rage by reading/listening to everything Bill Black, David DeGraw, Dilan Ratigan and Michael Hudson have written in the past three years. (note: more than the others Michael Hudson articles detail the Global Mafia’s objectives and stategies to make slaves of we the lowly masses). Please, everybody, print and distribute their articles everywhere!

    The OWSers MUST go “exponential” immediately, before the cold sets in, and demand that Elizabeth Warren replace Obama and run for President!

    Elizabeth Warren… President
    William Black… Attorney General
    Treasury Secretary… Michael Hudson
    Yves Smith… Senior Economic Adviser
    David DeGraw… FCC Chairman (go after the criminal liars… return truth to news!)

    We the people MUST pick our leaders and get behind them NOW!

    When I first stumbled upon William Black’s articles in 2008 I fully expected the Tea Party to get behind him. I was actually surprised that instead of insisting the government do it’s job and enforce the laws, the Tea Party chose to abandon government-by-the-people and hand it over to the corporate criminals. How stupid was that? I was shocked! Even so, I still believe that William Black’s message can and will resonate with the Tea Party… he just needs to strike a magical chord… it will happen… and when it does… EXPONENTIAL!!!

    • Steve says:
      October 18, 2011 at 1:25 am

      Also, I’m quite sure David DeGraw is the original organizer of the 99% movement. His articles at ampedstatus.com focused on the 99% concept going way back. I was disappointed that Dylan didn’t introduce David DeGraw as such. Am I wrong?

  • readerOfTeaLeaves says:
    October 18, 2011 at 1:22 am

    To paraphrase that old hack James Carville, “It’s the fraud, stupid. Plus, the ongoing insult that none of it has been prosecuted.”

    Ratigan’s interview with David DeGraw and Prof Wm Black is certainly a breath of fresh air. More, please…!

  • Hugo Stiglitz says:
    October 18, 2011 at 1:37 am

    First of all, thank goodness for Dylan Ratigan, Bill Black and of course, especially for Yves Smith and this site.

    I have a question for attorneys or anyone who might know the answer to a couple of questions about prosecution of control fraud and other financial crimes that Bill Black and others have frequently discussed:

    1. What is the statute of limitations, if any, on these myriad crimes? Has it not been too long since the “alleged” crimes were committed?

    2. How does prosecution under the RICO statute benefit prosecutors? Or is there another reason to use RICO?

    • HereYeGatherRound says:
      October 18, 2011 at 2:52 am

      i am not atty. i have read literally 100s of these fraud mtg/loan cases. i dont believe there is limit, or it is long time, for contract fraud. there is plenty of fraud with foreclosures and the loans. no docs, proven fraud docs, horseshit attys walking in presenting fraud docs to court. peeps can go after them, big time. they are personally responsible. find yours!

      we need big time civil suits in the country. judges that are so obtuse as to ignore the black and white in front of them, assuming they are presented any documents by the foreclosing atty, will have to go. many have already been repealed in state supreme courts on their outrageous “error.” they would have to ‘undue’ the truth that has already occurred. there are plenty still for the truth though.

      in many ways, that is what is going on in all this, a battle for the truth.

      where are all these unemployed attys we hear about? they need to team up and start loan and foreclosure fraud practices. i know that will make some of you cringe, but hey it will employ some people and redistribute wealth. that’s what legal system is for.

      as to rico it is criminal. if state prosecutors sought and realized criminal convictions, there would then be flood of pretty much slam dunk civil suits. rico also = fraud, or worse, so treble damages would be commensurate. maybe that why ags not going for the gusto?

      there are a few rico suits by attys, not just pro se. not sure what if anything has happened with them.

      • aet says:
        October 18, 2011 at 6:08 am

        Mortgages and written contracts dealing specifically with real estate tend to have long limitation periods. IIRC, for simple money owed you’ve got six or seven years to sue after default, while on contracts/mortgages dealing with land, you might have twenty or more years.

        And criminal law? Some crimes are not subject to limitations at all, like Nazi war crimes; while the clock only starts ticking on some once the prosecutors have enough evidence to bring a charge.

        Usually, is it not the case that the Statute of Limitations for crimes (that is, not for mere breach of contract, but criminal fraud) only considers the clock as having begun to tick once the crime’s perpetrator has become known to the authorities, that is, prosecutable?

        If there’s been a lapse of say five or ten or twenty years since I did some criminal act – can I now go and publicly mock the police and District Attorneys, while openly admitting to my crime? Relying on some “limitation”?

        I doubt that – I suspect that the “limitations clock” for crimes doesn’t run unless and until the authorities could have brought a case – but did not. That is how it works in civil law as far as I know.

        But every country , every state, has its own laws on such things, so I don’t know how it is, not being a lawyer.

        In fact, excepting the cases of double jeopardy, what purpose does (or would) any limit on the State’s (or the Public’s) right to bring criminal charges serve?
        Why have any such limits at all on their prosecution?

        I see the point in “time-limiting” the bringing of private lawsuits for the redress of civil wrongs – but do those same reasons also apply to criminal wrongs? Why give the criminals this brake on their own prosecutions?

    • LucyLulu says:
      October 18, 2011 at 6:37 am

      1. 5 years absolute limit, 2 years post discovery. The statute of limitations has expired on most but some still have time left, though it is quickly passing. This is for securities fraud.

      2. First, RICO allows the award of treble damages and attorney fees, and allows for both civil and criminal prosecutions. It allows several defendants to be tried simultaneously on conspiracy charges and convicted vicariously. It provides for penetration of corporation shields so that individuals within corporations can be legally pursued. There may be others. It requires more skill to prosecute however, mistakes can have heavy consequences.

      And btw, because FHFA has filed civil fraud charges with a solid paper trail to back up their allegations (for at least some anyways), the Justice Dept could pursue criminal fraud prosecutions given the will and desire. The FHFA did their homework, conducted on-site audits of loan documents, collected documents from other cases, issued subpoenas, etc. The only difference between civil and criminal fraud is the burden of proof required.

  • Wyntunnel says:
    October 18, 2011 at 2:10 am

    Bill Black needs a security detail of #OWS friendly Marines. Seriously. Does anyone here think the Elites are dumb enough to light the keg by an assassination or two? I don’t like bringing it up but didn’t almost everyone who stood up to the system in the 60s end up dead? Pox on them if they go there.

    • HereYeGatherRound says:
      October 18, 2011 at 2:33 am

      nearly everyone has a recording device, today ;)

    • aet says:
      October 18, 2011 at 6:10 am

      You’d be surprised how many people, who were active fifty years ago, are dead now.

      • aet says:
        October 18, 2011 at 6:16 am

        Wait…do you include the Viet Cong as being amongst those who “stood up to the system”?

        Or are you one of those people who see only America and Americans, when considering our world?

        • Wyntunnel says:
          October 18, 2011 at 6:56 am

          Actually I carry the weight of incomprehension that 100 million people died in WW2, that between 3 and 5 million people have died in the Congo in the past 5 years, that tens of thousands are dying of famine RIGHT NOW in Somalia (remember that? Funny how it barely makes the news anymore)that 100s of millions more are going to die as this farce of modernity returns to the mean of donkey and man power. I marvel at how complex our world is, how it simultaneously beautiful and horrible, at how easily all of it could be, will be destroyed in a few moments when Nature decides to scratch our corner of existence like She/he/it does every so often.

          All I am saying is that am very grateful for the likes of Bill Black who has been sticking to his message since well before 2008. And that given his message is one that should scare the hell out those it targets as more and more pay attention, I fear for his safety. The people he wants to see in jail control the law and order in this town.

  • chris says:
    October 18, 2011 at 2:13 am

    I am happy to hear another person saying it like it is about the big banks. Good job Ratigan. What I can’t stand is the BS about the if they do anything it would be not enough to satisfy so they just don’t do anything at all. It is crazy…..

    I also have been hearing all the talk radio head or at least 90% of them come out against OWS. It is so crazy that these people that are the first to bitch about free speech are now against the protests because they say they want something for nothing. This is couldn’t be farther from the truth. There are hardworking people that worked years to build up there finances that were crushed because of the banking fraud. I am not talking about people that are lazy and that did not work….I am talking about people who worked their fingers to the bone for years only to lose it all because of the real estate meltdown. OWS is our only chance at saving our country.
    Even a lot of main street folks have been drinking the Big bank kool aid for so long they are now standing up for the system. They have their heads in the sand and are angry now because people are protesting…..it makes no sense but sometimes I wonder what is going on in the heads of people that are supposed to be reasonable intelligent.

  • chris says:
    October 18, 2011 at 2:19 am

    Everyone needs to stand up and fight against the fools in Washington and the criminals on Wall Street. I don’t care who your whether you are rich or poor, unless you are one of them, the less than 1%, you need to be fighting for your rights. Peaceful protest or revolution. After what I heard on the radio this weekend I am convinced the corporations are running the country and even the loud mouth radio jack asses are afraid to to the right thing in fear of losing their paying advertisers. what a bunch of cowards. loud mouth cowards.

    • psychohistorian says:
      October 18, 2011 at 2:43 am

      You know, I sometimes feel like a broken record but why do folk continue to rail against the puppets when we really need to go after the puppet masters.

      Laugh the global inherited rich out of control of our society and into rooms at the Hague.

      And yes, I understand that this needs to happen at a global level. I don’t see a problem here. Have you ever talked to the 99% in other countries? They are losing patience with the 99% in America not taking care of their part of the problem.

  • Glenn Condell says:
    October 18, 2011 at 3:03 am

    Great to see David de Graw getting MSM facetime. His presentations at amped status on how we got here and how we should get out were part of my financial/economic education over the last few years. Some good interviews with Max K too.

    The Dem’s Operation Co-opt OWS has gone global, with a second rate think tanker called Michael Cohen having somehow landed a column at the Guardian, where he lays it on with the proverbial trowel:

    ‘While many of the protesters are unhappy with the current progressive president, their grievances and demands are very much at one with Obama’s emerging re-election strategy… For a president intent on running as an economic populist, a populist political movement might just be what the doctor ordered. No doubt Obama would have liked to see a movement like this a few years ago…’

    and so on.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/oct/16/occupy-wall-street-barack-obama

  • Wyntunnel says:
    October 18, 2011 at 7:06 am

    I deeply feel that things will not improve in the U.S. without a watershed moment. Something like millions of Americans who refuse to vote on election day taking to the streets in peaceful protest and not leaving until the military, yes, the military, sets up some form of Regency to keep things going while America seriously reboots its Constitution bringing it up to date with today’s reality of climate change, peak cheap oil, and dying Oceans. Profit can no longer be the point of existing. How about survival?

  • Linus Huber says:
    October 18, 2011 at 7:07 am

    Bush had a great chance of getting the country back after 911. Obama had a great chance of getting the country back after the crisis end of 2008.

    Both failed to take advantage of the window of opportunity that offered itself to them and will go down in history on that score. I still do not see someone who will really change a thing at present. Hopefully America will soon elect a REAL president and not another puppet.

  • flipspiceland says:
    October 18, 2011 at 9:18 am

    Not once has reinstatement of Glass-Steagal even mentioned.

    WHY?

  • Jaime says:
    October 19, 2011 at 9:13 am

    David DeGraw inviting Bill Black to join the leadership at OWS working out their agenda. Brilliant!

    http://www.capitalismwithoutfailure.com/2011/10/dear-occupy-wall-street-focus-on-people.html

  • Winston says:
    October 19, 2011 at 10:34 am

    Re: the second video – WAY too much joking and laughter. This is a phenomenally serious subject about which people should be mad as hell and not willing to take it any more. Get back to the occasional rants, Dylan, because that’s what this topic deserves.


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