Trump Looks To Nationalize 5G

By Michael Kern, a newswriter and editor at Safehaven.com, Oilprice.com, and a writer at Crypto Insider. Originally published at SafeHaven

Trump apparently wants to control 5G in a ‘state-run’ socialist twist to American capitalism—and now there are indications that it could become part of the 2020 election campaign.

Over the weekend, President Donald Trump’s 2020 campaign team renewed its controversial pitch on nationalizing the country’s 5G network. In other words, the government would have control of 5G airwaves and lease access to private wireless providers.

Kayleigh McEnany, a Trump 2020 campaign spokeswoman, told Politico that a wholesale 5G market would drive down costs and provide access to millions of Americans who are currently underserved.

“This is in line with President Trump’s agenda to benefit all Americans, regardless of geography,” McEnany said. Trump’s 2020 campaign manager, Brad Parscale, has been also pushing for a plan that would involve a nationwide 5G network.

Last month, President Trump himself wrote on social media about 5G, saying that “American companies must step up their efforts, or get left behind.”

“I want 5G, and even 6G, technology in the United States as soon as possible. It is far more powerful, faster, and smarter than the current standard,” he tweeted. (We’ll let the fact that there is no such thing as 6G technology slide for the sake of election campaigning). 

Not everyone’s on board the nationalization train, though. There are some in the White House who would prefer the industry lead this game. White House economic adviser Larry Kudlow, for one, believes wireless companies should manage the build-out of 5G. Feeling the heat over this talk of nationalization, even McEnany and Parscale later walked back their calls for government control of 5G, saying they were expressing their own personal opinions—not Trump’s.

The idea of a wholesale network is being pushed by little known wireless company Rivada Networks. However, it should be noted that Peter Thiel and Karl Rove, who both have close ties to the Republican party and are strong President Trump supporters, have invested in Rivada.

While this new campaign is ostensibly aimed at reducing costs and providing rural residents with fast internet, motives aren’t always what they appear to be.

We heard about this plan last year, too, when the administration thought it would test the waters and gauge public sentiment. It’s wasn’t very successful, taking a lot of heat from critics in the industry and from the Federal Communication Commission (FCC). It also got crushed by lawmakers on both sides of the gaping political divide. It was quickly shoved under the rug.

But China keeps coming back around.

A memo from a National Security Council official, obtained by Axios, insisted that a strong, government-controlled 5G network is necessary as a bulwark against Chinese threats to America’s economy and cyber security.

“China has achieved a dominant position in the manufacture and operation of network infrastructure…China is the dominant malicious actor in the Information Domain,” the memo read.

In the meantime, U.S. mobile providers such as  AT&T, Verizon and T-Mobile, for example, are investing heavily in this area and have promised to make 5G a reality later this year.

However, they are still lagging behind Chinese companies, Huawei primarily, one of the biggest phone makers and telecommunications kit providers in the world and the company that has been the target of U.S. lobbying over national security and economy concerns.

The US administration has recently announced it is considered barringAmerican companies from using equipment from Chinese companies and called on its allies to do the same.

So, the elephant in the 5G room is China—not “underserved” American farmers—however, nice that might sound for the 2020 campaign. Much of China’s power comes from the fact that the government controls everything. But the suggestion is that if America wants to beat China, it has to become China, and nationalization is the first step.

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92 comments

  1. Synoia

    In the meantime, U.S. mobile providers such as AT&T, Verizon and T-Mobile, for example, are investing heavily in this area and have promised to make 5G a reality later this year.

    This is a list of carriers, users of Telecom equipment.

    However, they are still lagging behind Chinese companies, Huawei primarily, one of the biggest phone makers and telecommunications kit providers in the world

    This is the worlds biggest maker of Telecom equipment.

    The article is badly structured because it conflates, spectrum control (Government), Carriers (our beloved carriers), and equipment suppliers (Huawei).

    Hauwei invested 20 Million over the last 4 years, much of it on 5G, and they are the market leader. Good luck catching up that in less that 4 years. There are NO US owned telecom suppliers.

    Conventional wisdom is:
    You can bullshit the customers
    You can bullshit the management
    You can bullshit the workers.
    You cannot bullshit the electrons.

    Reply
    1. Harry

      “In the meantime, U.S. mobile providers such as AT&T, Verizon and T-Mobile, for example, are investing heavily in this area and have promised to make 5G a reality later this year.”

      Yes. And I promised my wife I would clean out the garage later this year.

      Reply
    2. Susan the Other

      Thank you for unpacking this. I was going to ask “What is so different about 5G airwaves from the old FCC’s allocation of wavelengths?” Nothing, except being at the mercy of Chinese production. And that compromises national security. And when national security is at risk, it’s best not to mess around with the “free market.” So we can’t get too carried away with neoliberal fantasies. And we can fall back on our tried-and-true government agency oversight. How quaint.

      Reply
    3. Synoia

      Bottom Line:

      Rolling out 5G is so expensive the Carriers want the Government to pay, and they will reap the profits.

      Why is it so expensive? Because it needs a micro cell sit on every other telephone pole, where the is overhead network. Where service is buried, it costs millions of dollars per mile to install the equipment.

      Where there is buried service, there is probably no fiber, because of the costs of digging up every other sidewalk and replacing it, and there a no poles on which to mount 5g repeaters.

      Reply
  2. drumlin woodchuckles

    This whole ” 5G” deal makes me think about a comment I read on the Bugpocalypse thread. Someone suggested that the last few decades of Wireless ElectroSmog has been slowly killing off all the insects who spend their lives flying through it, marinating in it, etc.

    And we know from Professor Phillip Callahan’s research in decades past that insect antennas are not just smell-molecule receptors. They are also Infra-Red light ( electromagnetic radiation) receptors over a range of many IR wavelengths. Here’s a sad little wikistub about Phillip Callahan.
    http://wiki.naturalphilosophy.org/index.php?title=Philip_S_Callahan

    Is there a way to “know” if the all-pervading electrosmog is killing the insects? Well . . . . are there parts of the world without this electrosmog? How about deepest Amazonia? How about the deepest Congo Basin Rain Forest? How about the High Arctic during the brief summer mosquito season? How about isolated tropical islands with no communications worth speaking of? Has anyone done any insect biomass censuses there? If not, doesn’t someone think they should? If insects were discovered to be as common as ever in the “no electrosmog” places, that should at least suggest some more experiments to be done.

    Meanwhile, perhaps whether to Nationalize or Privatize the upcoming 5G network is the wrong question to worry about. Perhaps the right question to worry about should be whether to permit the 5G network to be built here or to forbid 5G from existing within the United States.

    Reply
    1. drumlin woodchuckles

      Here are a few more links to various things by and about Callahan so as to judge the weight of his mind with . . . on these matters.

      Some stuff which starts out being about paramagnetism but gets into insect antennas AS antennas.
      http://www.rexresearch.com/callahan/callahan.htm

      These must be the people who handled Callahan’s funeral. This is an obituary.
      https://www.frenchfunerals.com/notices/Philip-Callahan

      Here is a bibliography of Callahan works being hosted by Dykstra Laboratories.
      http://dykstralabs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/CALLAHAN.PUB_.pdf

      A foreign view from the Belize Ag Report.
      http://agreport.bz/what-has-professor-philip-s-callahan-done-for-agriculture/

      Reply
    2. lordkoos

      There seem to be health concerns around 5G networks, but I’m not sure if it’s the actual 5G technology that is the problem, or if it is the pervasiveness of the network being planned. I’ve heard talk of embedding 5G tech into highways, buildings, etc. Maybe someone with more knowledge can enlighten?

      Reply
      1. drumlin woodchuckles

        My purely layman’s feeling is that the technology requires the pervasiveness. The more jam-packed the whole 3-D landscape is with all the little 5D broadcasters and repeaters and things, the better the 5D will work.

        So every little 5G ElectroSmog point source emitter is harmful to things right around it which cannot escape the EM soakdown and have to marinate their whole lives in it. And putting endless millions of little 5G ElectroSmog point source emitters all over everywhere so that the “next one’s” field of soakdown begins before “this one’s” field of soakdown ends . . . . will guarantee that we all marinate our whole lives in an electromagnetic sewage lagoon of filthy deadly IR energy.

        Reply
        1. susan the Other

          my god, drumlin… this is stuff they don’t want to talk about… I’m a news junkie (useless pastime now) and I haven’t heard a word on this. But I believe you.

          Reply
          1. drumlin woodchuckles

            I believe me too. I am just a layman and I could be wrong, but I will live what parts of my life I can feasibly live in the suspicion that I am right.

            If the 5G rollout happens bigly, I will Faraday cage my living quarters as best I can. I will try doing other things and avoidances as I learn where the various outdoor 5G glowprints are the hottest.

            Of course I will keep all my appliances duhmm and analog as much as possible. I will not allow 5G bluetooth or other short-range broadcasters and communicators into my dwelling unit. Etc.

            Still, it would be nice if we could prevent the rollout altogether.

            Reply
        2. Anonymous physicist

          The IR = InfraRed radiation mentioned above is also emitted by all heat sources, such as ovens, your home heating system, the sun….
          Unless it indeed heats you up, it is harmless.
          It is not ‘ionizing radiation’ which can break chemical bonds, the energy
          of IR photons is just too low to do that.
          The ultraviolet part of the sun’s radiation just gets there, that’s why you should
          use sunscreen. So fears of ‘Electrosmog’ are unwarranted.
          (P.S. I don’t work for telecoms, so gain nothing by this comment.)

          Reply
          1. drumlin woodchuckles

            Since you don’t work for telecoms, you are either sincerely correct or incorrect. I will have to think about this.

            About the insectapocalypse specifically, my understanding of Callahan’s writing about Callahan’s work is that insect antennas respond to the infrared wavelengths given off by certain plant and/or other-insect-emitted chemicals as they get excited and de-excited. If I understand correctly, then IR-smog could indeed specifically mask, jam and dull insect perception of the IR wavelengths they use to sense their environment with. That is just my little theory, where the insects are concerned.

            Becker focused his concern on electromagnetic fields given off by wiring, cables, electric appliances, etc. I am not sure what he thought ( he’s dead now) of microwave broadcasting specifically. And is “microwave” in the same wavelength zone as “IR”?

            Reply
  3. The Rev Kev

    I am going to say that this company has a lot of what some people might call deep state backing. It has contracts with the National Guard, US Coastguard, Customs and Border Protection as well as the US Secret Service. More to the point, when I went to their website, I found some of the people on their Board of Directors at https://www.rivada.com/#our-people to be very interesting such as-

    Gov. Jeb Bush – Former governor of Florida

    Field Marshall The Lord Guthrie – Former Chief of the Defence Staff, United Kingdom

    Admiral Jim Loy – Former Dept Sec US Dept of Homeland Security

    George Forseman – Former Under Secretary US Dept of Homeland Security

    Michael P. Jackson – Former Deputy Secretary US Dept of Homeland Security

    General Richard B. Myers – Former Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff

    Gov. Martin O’Malley – Former governor of Maryland

    But I suppose the true lesson is that if you cannot beat the Chinese in a technological field, then nationalize it and make it illegal to have them compete with your own corporations. But maybe at the end of the day drumlin is right to question the wisdom of this unproven technology being deployed before its effects on humans are known.

    Reply
    1. drumlin woodchuckles

      Thank you for the kind words.

      I have an idea. Lets do an experiment! Let China be the experimental population. Let America be the control population. Let China marinate itself in 5G electrosmog as much as it likes for the next few decades. Let America ban 5G electrosmog pollution technology within American territory for the same few decades. And let us see what happens.

      Reply
        1. drumlin woodchuckles

          Thank you for the kind words. In all seriousness, besides not having the energy for politics, I don’t care to put a target on my forehead and another target on my neck for receiving the “Kennedy treatment”.

          Maybe it could become a popular movement. Let China Do It. Just Do It, China.

          And we’ll be watching from behind this lead shield.

          Reply
      1. Susan the Other

        Back before WW2, 20s or 30s, just after they started promoting rural electrification in Utah, my grandparents gave my great-grandparents a hookup for christmas. And my great-grandparents didn’t like it and never used it. They were quite happy the way they were. Funny.

        Reply
        1. lordkoos

          I think that once you reach a certain age, people becomes weary of learning or adapting to new technology. Like my 91 year-old mother who has no need or desire to have a smart phone.

          Reply
    2. Summer

      “But maybe at the end of the day drumlin is right to question the wisdom of this unproven technology being deployed before its effects on humans are known.”

      “Effects on humans.” That doesn’t stop well-connected people from deploying anything deadly. All they would want to know is how to keep themselves safe while yet another drug or tech product release reeks its havoc.

      Meet the Sacklers
      Meet the Trumps
      Meet the lot of them
      And take yor lumps

      Reply
      1. drumlin woodchuckles

        Can we turn these lumps into boomerang lumps?

        Can every lump have an equal and opposite re-lump?

        Reply
  4. ambrit

    This entire 5G network program is nuts. The bandwidth is higher than previous methods.
    Several abstracts of papers on 5G related issues: https://www.saferemr.com/2017/09/5g-wireless-technology-is-5g-harmful-to.html
    For technical reasons the cell towers, actually repeater units often on existing power poles, need to be closer together. Thus, higher intensity of microwave signals. Also, the microwave signals used for data transfer are not continuous, but pulsed.
    The SAR ratings are a smoke screen. They measure one aspect of microwave effects, thermal heating, that is not the entire danger. The microwave energy has other effects on biological entities. Disruption of endocrine systems is a primary danger.
    This is basically a huge scientific and medical experiment on the entire population of the nation.
    Google 5G dangers and wade through the pages of links. Not all of the links there are “conspiracy theory” quality. There is good, solid science behind the warnings.

    Reply
    1. drumlin woodchuckles

      Given what Robert Becker ( a scientific researcher within the VA system) has said and written about the cancer dangers and other dangers of electrosmog, perhaps we should be conspiratorial and entertain the thought that 5G is another stealth-jackpot technology . . . . designed to raise the rate of cancer and heart disease and make it look like an accident.

      A Robert O. Becker wiki
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_O._Becker

      A Robert O. Becker bibliography
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_O._Becker

      A book of his that I once read called The Body Electric.
      http://www.emfresearch.com/the-body-electric/

      And maybe we should not forget about Paul M. Brodeur . . . The Zapping Of America.

      http://www.paulbrodeur.net/the_zapping_of_america__microwaves__their_deadly_risk__and_the_cover_up_120368.htm

      Here is a general Paul Brodeur site.
      http://www.paulbrodeur.net/

      Given all this, I think it is very reasonable to think that some people are viewing 5G as part of the stealth-jackpotogenesis matrix.

      More shallow people look to 5G to facilitate rolling out the InterSpynet of Shit. ” Careful, the walls have teeth”.

      5G should definitely be banned in this country.

      Reply
      1. kimyo

        assuming that 5g does have negative health effects, nationalizing 5g sure is a sweet way to protect verizon et al from lawsuits while allowing them to continue to rake in the profits.

        Reply
        1. ambrit

          Hmmm…. This idea meets or exceeds my cynicism quota. Now is the time to find out who is ‘advising’ Trump on this subject. Then, try and trace that person or persons ‘backing,’ both intellectual and financial.
          I am beginning to notice that “induced jackpot” theories are gaining purchase in the public’s ‘mind.’
          “Disaster! It’s not just for 4chan anymore!”

          Reply
          1. drumlin woodchuckles

            Whose idea meets or exceeds your cynicism quota . . . .

            Kimyo’s idea? That “nationalizing 5G” is basically a “Price-Anderson Act” for lifting the burden of liability from the private 5G user-companies?

            Or my idea? That ” It’s a cookbook!”

            Reply
            1. ambrit

              Oh, both, definitely both.
              As I often reply to Lambert, one can never be too cynical today.
              However, I wonder about “Cynicism Overload.” It might be tied in with “Clinical Depression.” (I ‘present’ with both.)
              Synergistically, the ‘level of harm’ produced by the microwave environmental saturation is ameliorated by the drop in population density caused by the harmful effects of the microwave ‘burden.’
              Considering that the harms of environmental microwave radiation were first considered to be cellular heating of biological entities, which is how the Microwave Oven works, your “Fun Cooking Deplorables With Microwaves” tome idea has significant merit. Like Frank Herbert did, you might have luck getting it published by Chilton Press.

              Reply
              1. False Solace

                There are studies that indicate depressed people have a more accurate view of themselves and reality than the non-depressed. It seems that some of what we perceive to be normal consciousness actually involves a lot of comforting untruths.

                It reminds me of Terry Pratchett’s “knurd”, “a state beyond sobriety that is considered to be a revelation nobody ever wants to experience more than once”.

                Quoting the wiki:

                Consider the following scale:

                – Being drunk is to be intoxicated by alcohol to such an extent as to be unable to perceive the world clearly through the senses.
                – Being sober is to be able to perceive the world clearly through the senses, yet humans are quite capable of giving themselves illusions and little stories to make life more bearable.
                – Being knurd is to be (un)intoxicated with Klatchian Coffee to such an extent that all such comfort stories are stripped away from the mind.

                This makes you see the world in a way ‘nobody ever should’, in all its harsh reality.

                People generally find being knurd excruciating, as their comfortable illusions are stripped away and all of life’s terrors are exposed. […] When accidentally knurd, people hurry to get alcohol into them to restore the balance. In fact, they generally go too far, getting very drunk in order to a) make certain they aren’t knurd, and b) get so comfortably illusory that the mind can’t recall those terrible realities.

                There are some unfortunate individuals (for example, Sir Samuel Vimes of the Ankh-Morpork City Watch) whose body does not make enough natural alcohol, and is consequently slightly knurd all the time until he has had a drink. Since he’s promised Lady Sybil he’ll stay off the sauce, this lack of comforting illusion is probably the reason for his core cynicism: whereas most of us nurture the hope that the best and happiest outcome is always an option, he knows things aren’t going to be any good and all he can hope for is to make them the least worst.

                Personally, I regard myself as in a permanent state of knurd, but I don’t consider myself depressed and I’m not a drinker. I go by Tolkien: “There’s still some good in this world, Mr Frodo, and it’s worth fighting for.”

                Reply
                1. ambrit

                  Thank you.
                  I had forgotten about ‘knurd.’
                  Tolkien’s quote could be seen as an example of an Oxford Don’s version of “existentialism.”

                  Reply
              2. drumlin woodchuckles

                The problem with cynicism is that it leads to a weary defeatism. “Nothing matters and nothing can be done.” I think that’s why the Overclass’s hired Mass Culture Lords work so hard to foster cynicism everywhere.

                Only “realistic” hope could directly lift the cynicism. Are there different things which may be “realistically” hoped for under different conditions?

                Properly informed and focused hatred may well be able to cut through the cynicism. Acts of hatred directed against the right targets. If 5G cannot be banned in this country . . . and gets rolled out, perhaps freelance members of “the people” can come up with ways to destroy the little 5G ElectroSmog point source emitters in place. Either by huge flash mobs gathering with hand held mirrors on sunny days and all focusing their mirror hot spots on a selected emitter . . . or by building tiny little micro drones with tiny little microbombs on board and flying these micro drones up to the targetted emitter and then detonating the microbomb . . . or other methods.
                (I remember some mean kids once telling me about a sly little trick: roll and inch-big blob of Elmer’s Glue in sand so you can pick it carefully up . . . and then throw it at something. Perhaps sandy-coated Elmer’s glue blobs could be fired from special little slingshots at the point source emitters.)

                Do you feel your depression lifting just a little bit?

                The System has a thousand kneecaps. And there’s a thousand acres of tire irons just lying around. There’s a kneecap for every tire iron and a tire iron for every kneecap.

                Someone should study the Acres Of Diamonds speech and write a parody speech, to be called . . . Acres Of Tire Irons.
                https://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/rconwellacresofdiamonds.htm

                Reply
    2. Alex V

      Citation of peer reviewed studies showing disruption of endocrine systems from microwave energy please. Shouldn’t be difficult to at least share one, since you claim “pages of links”.

      Yves tends to frown on telling people to “Google it”.

      Reply
      1. kimyo

        not what you asked for, but quite disturbing and at the very least suggests a serious and independent examination of these issues is necessary: New Kaiser Permanente Study Provides Evidence of Health Risks Linked to Electromagnetic Field Exposure

        In a new study funded by the National Institute of Environmental Health Sciences, researchers asked women over age 18 with confirmed pregnancies to wear a small (a bit larger than a deck of cards) magnetic-field monitoring device for 24 hours. Participants also kept a diary of their activities on that day, and were interviewed in person to better control for possible confounding factors, as well as how typical their activities were on the monitoring day. Researchers controlled for multiple variables known to influence the risk of miscarriage, including nausea/vomiting, past history of miscarriage, alcohol use, caffeine intake and maternal fever and infections.

        Objective magnetic field measurements and pregnancy outcomes were obtained for 913 pregnant women, all members of Kaiser Permanente Northern California. Miscarriage occurred in 10.4 percent of the women with the lowest measured exposure level (1st quartile) of magnetic field non-ionizing radiation on a typical day, and in 24.2 percent of the women with the higher measured exposure level (2nd, 3rd and 4th quartiles), a nearly three times higher relative risk. The rate of miscarriage reported in the general population is between 10 and 15 percent, Dr. Li said.

        Reply
        1. Alex V

          Very interesting study, thanks for this.

          However, from the website of the manufacturer of the meters used in the study:

          https://www.enertech.net/html/emdex_faqs.html#faqQ14

          “Q:

          How do I measure fields from my cell phone or microwave?

          A:

          Cellular phones, cellular towers, microwave ovens, two-way radios, and similar devices emit fields in the radio frequency (RF) band. Enertech’s meters are designed to measure power-frequency (50 or 60 Hz) or extremely-low-frequency (ELF) electric and magnetic fields, and cannot measure these higher frequency fields. An appropriate RF meter should be used to measure higher frequency fields (designed and designated for the frequency of interest).

          Using ELF meters (such as EMDEX meters) close to RF sources such as an active cell phone can interfere with the meter’s operation or cause incorrect ELF readings.”

          So, somewhat difficult to apply the findings to 5G, since the study was measuring a significantly different type of electromagnetic energy. The study certainly doesn’t rule out the possibility of harm from higher frequency RF energy, but the instrument used was not designed to quantify exposure to what is being discussed.

          Reply
        1. Alex V

          The first paper is about skin models and RF simulations at completely different frequencies from 5G. Absorption of microwave energy by different materials is highly frequency dependent (there’s a reason why microwave ovens use 2.4 GHz, for example). They do not confirm their models experimentally. It also does not establish or even discuss any claims of harm due to RF energy.

          The second paper is more useful in this discussion, in that they establish higher power densities and SAR due to 5G network topologies. They however fail to link this to any health risks.

          The third paper seems to be effectively paywalled, so it’s hard to establish relevance. The abstract however makes no claims of health risks and only mentions “effects”, so I’m doubtful the purpose of that paper is anything beyond summarizing other papers’ findings on immediately observed physical phenomena. They however mention the use of microwaves for therapeutic reasons. Microwave based ablation of tumors is for example a well established and proven technique.

          Reply
          1. ambrit

            We are in a curiously nebulous situation regarding this subject. There needs to be a lot more ‘hard’ research done on the effects of microwave exposure of biological systems. I’ll not dispute that. However, I, and I am not alone in this, see a rush to roll out the 5G systems based on a profit based valuation with a “benign neglect” of the physiological effects at play.
            My worry is that a situation akin to the thalidomide disaster of the late 1950’s and early 1960’s will result. A similar dynamic was at play then.

            Reply
            1. Alex V

              I completely concur on the profit based motivation for 5G. The industry is out of ideas for real innovation, and this is not driven by real need. One of the large selling points has been the increased bandwidth, as video has until now been driving demand for ever more data capacity and speed. We’ve however already basically reached the limits of what the human visual sensory system can process (4K resolution). So unless we start adding Smell-O-Vision the experience is not noticeably improved by more capacity.

              Regarding exposure to RF energy, I’m however highly doubtful that there are risks as large as those being implied by many of the skeptics in the comments. We have more than a century of experience with this technology, and epidemiology has not found it to be a good explanation for a wide range of disease. I’m not saying the RF cannot under any circumstance contribute or cause disease. I just think that the risk is orders of magnitude smaller in relation to other factors such diet, fitness, genetics, etc… I guess an interesting area of research could be to take studies of cancer, for example, where a large number of risk factors (excluding RF energy) have been eliminated as causes or correlation for the disease, and try to find if there is then a correlation to RF exposure, since RF exposure is probably not included as a risk factor in many studies. Trying to identify the unknown cause, in essence.

              Reply
              1. ambrit

                The RF issue also hinges on what type of radio frequency, and the method of deployment used.
                One issue with 5G is that it uses wavesizes in the one to ten millimetre range. The so called dermal effect layer is one millimetre in depth. A correlation is apparent. The size and shape of human sweat glands is involved. The human sweat gland is heliacal in shape and roughly the right size for said glands to act as microwave antennas. This is supposed to be the basis for the theorized microwave skin cooking anti-personnel crowd control weapon.
                As said, there is just too much unknown now to posit partial, much less absolute safety in the use of this technology.
                To your point about unneeded features on communications devices, I have received notice from my cut rate telecom provider that I might have to “upgrade”: my handset due to network “improvements.” Scrolling through the options, I find that no truly “dumb” phone is even offered. It looks like 4G is the new lower bound.
                Also, copper wire telephony is no longer being offered in our town. Wifi networks everywhere. The cable people offer telephony, but it goes “to space” somewhere along the line. And try to jailbreak your phone nowadays. I’m surprised that hasn’t been made a felony yet.
                Here’s to stronger science ethics!

                Reply
                1. Alex V

                  Um, you’re a bit off on your wavelengths for 5G. The highest frequencies allocated to 5G are around 39 GHz, which equals a wavelength of 7.7 mm. The other mm-wave frequencies allocated are around 24-29 GHz, so a wavelength of 12.5 to 10.3 mm. Non mm-wave frequencies for 5G are below 6 GHz, so a wavelength of at least 50 mm. You would need to go to 300 GHz to have a wavelength of 1 mm. This has not been discussed as spectrum to be used for 5G.

                  Non-lethal microwave weapons operate on bulk heating principles of fat and water, not due to theorized antenna effects of sweat glands.

                  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_Denial_System

                  Reply
                  1. ambrit

                    I don’t know about ‘walling’ functions, but here is an abstract concerning sweat glands and radio waves:https://www.researchgate.net/publication/51394628_Human_Skin_as_Arrays_of_Helical_Antennas_in_the_Millimeter_and_Submillimeter_Wave_Range
                    Another site (admittedly issue directed) :https://mdsafetech.org/problems/5g/
                    And something on the wavelengths proposed for 5G networks: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/5G
                    Scroll down to ^Standards^ for wavelength bands.
                    I do not know if this article has been superceded or not.

                    Reply
    3. Carolinian

      Well if this dubious technology does indeed kill male sperm counts at least that will take care of the overpopulation problem. We men may have to start wearing Faraday suits–all so everyone can get enough bandwidth to watch cheesy Hollywood movies on Netflix.

      Reply
      1. polecat

        The ‘tell’ would be if whether, or not, the Silicon bill/trill/squillionares allow their progeny to use, without restrictions, this new-n-wonderous ‘communication’ technology. If not, then “Progress”, in this case, ain’t grand !

        Reply
          1. drumlin woodchuckles

            Corsets were tightly cinchable body-squeeze appliances designed to compress the body into a wasp-waisted hyper-hourglass shape.

            I don’t see why Faraday Underwear would have to be corsetized.

            Reply
  5. oaf

    …its about microwaving EVERYTHING, but on low-defrost…

    Why would they want to do that???

    Cause, its good for us!!!

    Reply
  6. timbers

    Trump: “5G for rural America! And apple pie for mom and the kids!”

    Democrats: “Resist!”

    Such a choice.

    No mention of what 80% of Americans would benefit from, no healthcare for all for rural America, no Postal Service or Postal banking for rural America, no infrastructure modernization, better public transposition (except for The Richest Man on Earth he gets a private heliopad) nothing to address global warming, no tax increases on the rich and corporations….but 5G?

    Huh?

    Seems a lot of this is diversion for the guy in the WH while the destructive adolescent warmongers like Bolton spend time trying to smash this and that nation.

    Reply
      1. drumlin woodchuckles

        All those people sleeping under Bill Clinton’s “Bridge to the Twenty First Century” will be killed when all those bridges collapse on them. Hey, presto! . . . as Kurt Vonnegut used to say. Population Control.

        Reply
  7. John Beech

    The repeaters are closer because the waves are higher in frequency and thus, shorter in length. The upshot is they don’t travel as far before being dispersed and are easily disrupted. Hence the need for more towers. Fortunately, even a utility pole is adequate because these things are a lot smaller/lighter than a similar piece for a longer wavelength like our cellular network uses today.

    As for nationalization, if it ends up giving everybody 5G access I’m for it because I’d fed up with denizens of highly populated areas getting the good stuff. Everybody else? Sorry Charlie.

    A model based on rural electrification may work because it addresses the same problem (distance makes it cost prohibitive for commercial telecom carriers as it did the power providers)

    Reply
    1. Eureka Springs

      Based on rural electrification would be fiber to every home on the grid. Use the same poles. I can’t help but wonder if this is not just about surveillance (look at the rivada board!), but about handing lots of money to telcos for implementation of 5g infrastructure. And high speed means little if there are high costs with a choke on usage. So far I’m reading of roughly the same few gigs a month allotments for 5g as 4g. We need truly unlimited for less than we pay now for 10 gigs a month. I’m paying a little over 72 bucks a month for ten.

      Reply
      1. False Solace

        Agreed. Since we have to send workers out to every utility pole anyway, just run the lines. Wireless is too fragile, insecure, easy to disrupt (weather or whatever else) and has unknown effects on biology. The only reason Trump likes this idea is because it lets him privatize the profits for his cronies. If he actually wanted to compete with China he’d go subsidize solar panel manufacturing or fifty other things that are vitally important.

        Reply
    2. drumlin woodchuckles

      Do you really think that getting your share of the cancer and heart disease from your share of the 5G ElectroSmog is a good thing? Have you really thought this through?

      Reply
    3. Kurt Sperry

      I wonder if people were worried about radio waves when wireless broadcast was a new thing? Or broad electrification? Did the advent of TV broadcasting cause a new wave of concern? How could all these TV shows coursing through your body 24/7/365 not have some significant deleterious effect? I remember when sitting in front of a CRT-type television was claimed to be dangerous. When people near power transmission lines claimed harm and it couldn’t be statistically confirmed. Seems commonsense though, right?

      What is likelihood that 5G could be significantly dangerous and still be rolled out with compelling evidence of its dangers known, or even likely, to science? Is the EU concerned? Japan? What do they think? I’ll await the first claim that 5G causes autism, it feels inevitable.

      We need robust evidence-based science here. If 5G is a significant health risk, we need to know that; if it isn’t we need to know that as well.

      Reply
      1. ambrit

        We used to live down the street from a medium sized interstate electric power transmission line. On humid summer days, you could hear the buzzing and crackling of the “electric demons” arguing.

        Reply
        1. Wukchumni

          If you’re ever near Bishop,Ca. on Hwy 395, I suggest a soak in the Keough hot springs ditch underneath the power lines. A lot of hum und keine drang.

          Reply
  8. notabanker

    In the grand scheme of things, it’s quite interesting that we are going to up the ante on chinese soybeans, corn and wheat, but we draw the line at wi-fi.

    Reply
  9. Watt4Bob

    My impression of the ‘advances‘ in both computing and telcom technology over the last 5 or 10 years is that the bulk of ‘improvements‘ are to advantage carriers, media, and the surveillance state/social media data sellers, not users.

    Users means you and me, they want to sell us stuff, and control us.

    There is so much spying involved in even minimal internet/phone use that both user hardware and infrastructure has to be more robust to keep the user from being aware of the activity going on ‘behind-the-curtain’, so to speak.

    Huawei builds back-doors into its equipment because the Americans led the way, now after abandoning making our own hardware, we’re freaking because the Chinese have as much access to our networks as the NSA/Borg has.

    The MIC (military-intelligence-complex, industry has been farmed out to China) is fighting to maintain its position as top-dog in the nebulous ‘they‘ of conspiracy-theory fame, as the Chinese and Russians demonstrate that in the new internet world, they are as good at being ‘they’, as the old MIC used to be.

    Look around, the big social media and tech giants are busy cooperating with both the old, as in our‘they’, (the MIC), and ‘their’ , the Chinese ‘they’, in order to surveil ‘their’ respective populations.

    And if you’ve followed thus far, you’ve guessed that both groups consider the whole world to be their oyster, I mean target.

    You may have also absorbed the fact that the clever neoliberals managed to loose the advantage by ceding manufacture of tech equipment to China, and now realizing their monumental mistake, are attempting to regain the advantage by passing laws.

    Yeah, that’s gonna work.

    Reply
  10. Summer

    “Nationalizing 5G”

    No, he wants to be “Leaser In Chief.”

    Can anyone say “toll road on steroids”?

    Health effects on the general population will not stop 5G (“And even 6G!!!????)…if it exists. And emphasis on “general” population.

    Reply
      1. polecat

        Do you think this ‘G’ roll-out would be any different with a Biden, Harris, Gods forbid … Beto, or almost anyone on the um … left ??
        But but but PROGRESS !!!

        There are very few sane minds out there who are willing to question how much .. is too much !

        Reply
        1. ambrit

          The question of how much is too much is dependent upon who gets the benefits. The real conflict is over who gets what. As far as the apex predators in the economy are concerned, there is no upper limit to wealth accumulation.
          An apex predator’s methodology is to ‘cull the herd.’ The herd’s optional methodology is to cull the apex predators. I know where I fit in that equation.

          Reply
        2. Oh

          I don’t think it’d be any different. The dimRats will shovel more largesse to the yuuge corps just like the Repigs.

          Reply
    1. False Solace

      Trump says a lot of things then never follows through, I have no idea why this would be different. He campaigned on replacing Obamacare and never did anything, and his big push in Korea came to nothing, and oh yeah now he has no plans to ever leave Iraq. Trump is good at three things: appointing radical judges, gutting environmental and worker protections, and tax cuts for the rich. Bog standard Republican, in other words, but that’s not what his voters thought they were getting.

      Reply
      1. ambrit

        The tragedy inherent in that situation is that the Democrat Party are clueless as to the necessity of ‘engaging with’ Trumps original supporters. Not only does the Democrat Party risk “throwing the baby out with the bath water,” but they seriously risk breaking the bathing basin as well.
        Can we say “Interregnum” boys and girls?

        Reply
      2. MyLessThanPrimeBeef

        Is it not-following-through (here, suggesting not-trying or not-trying-at-all), or not-able-to-do-it (trying, or trying very hard)?

        On the wall – the former or the latter?

        On NK – the former or the latter?

        On free trade, trade with China, Obamacare, etc.

        If the latter, it should be a reminder (as this is nothing new) to any new president, or any new congress person, wanting to change that DC is a swamp.

        Reply
      1. ambrit

        At the least, expect the elites to pass zoning restriction against “excessive” cell tower density in “upscale neighborhoods.” Probably done under the guise of ‘beautification’ and ‘ambiance’ zoning rules.
        Also, look for certain “upscale” areas to suddenly get comprehensive optical cable broadband installed, if not already available.

        Reply
        1. drumlin woodchuckles

          One wonders if “downscale people” could figure out how to hide 5G point source emitter-devices in “upscale neighborhoods”. Not devices sophisticated enough to actually rebroadcast 5G information waves. Just purely malicious electro-smoggers emitting a nasty mix of all the health-relevant wavelengths.

          Reply
  11. Michael C

    The health risks and the safety of 5G needs to be proven before it is implemented in communities. But that will not happen. It will be put in place, just like the dangers of holding a cell phone next to your ear were not scientifically investigated–or if investigated the results not divulged–until after everybody and his brother was holding one next to his ear. Profit rules, the hoi polloi be damned.

    Reply
    1. drumlin woodchuckles

      If someone can convince the Limbaugh crowd, the Alex Jones crowd and the Fox News crowd that the “5G” devices are really Democrat-Liberal “mind-reading” devices and Democrat-Liberal “brainwave-control” devices ; then you would have three powerful constituencies rising against 5G.

      Also, if the Christian Militants could be convinced that 5G imprints the Mark of the Beast upon the very air itself, that would be a fourth opposition group.

      Reply
      1. ambrit

        Well. The ‘Alex Jones’ ‘crowd’ is already ‘up in arms’ against 5G. I do not have personal; knowledge of the other two. I could easily see the Evangelical ‘crowd’ getting behind the “Number of the Beast” argument. What one seldom sees in print is the correlation between the “Anti-Big Government” philosophy and an “Anti-Big Corporation” philosophy. So far, the former has been promoted by the ‘Globalist’ agitators, while the latter has not, for what I see as obvious reasons. Some canny meta-group can take the affinity between the supposedly ‘opposing’ philosophies and turn it to good use.

        Reply
      1. ambrit

        “We” have the EPA????? I beg to differ. (I know you knew this from the start. I just couldn’t resist. Sorry.)

        Reply
  12. Anarcissie

    Since we still pretend to have a Constitution in the US, I wonder if government ownership and control of a common medium of communications might not evoke First-Amendment considerations. That is, one could not rent out the entirety of the spectrum to one or a few major actors, thereby depriving everyone else of access to it.

    Reply
    1. ambrit

      I would seriously expect the government to trot out the old “right versus privilege” argument. Especially if the government could plausibly portray Internet usage as a potential ‘locus of terror.’

      Reply
  13. Joe Well

    Thank you for your content aggregation. I never would have heard of Safehaven.com or many other websites if it weren’t for NC. This is just the kind of perspective that doesn’t quite fit existing agendas and doesn’t get as much traction in the “progressive” media.

    Reply
    1. ambrit

      s/ Oh, come on now. Get with the gameplan j6p. /s
      Remember the Arpanet? That was government owned and built. Then it was given away to the “private sector.” Levine’s book is quite detailed about that giveaway.

      Reply
  14. Mark

    It’s a pity that the only time the us govt kicks into gear is when it perceives a threat from the outside. Such a sorry state of affairs

    Reply
  15. Mael Colium

    Ha ha – and today China announces it is suing the US over their Huwai 5G blockout which has spread to US allies and other interested countries as well. The world is a bit nervy over this tiger!

    Seriously, how much longer did China think the West would tolerate their patent stealing, exchange rate fixing and tariff walls while they scooped the cream off the trade table with their favoured nation status? And not to mention their BRICS fiddling around making predatory “investments” in South Seas Nations …. who are now pushing back after Sri Lanka lost it’s port facility due to Chinese foreclosure. Don’ even mention Taiwan for Gawd’s sake!

    It had to happen sometime and better sooner than later. China’s US reserves are gigantic and could be frozen by a hasty signature of the Trumpster, thus rendering Chinese trade into oblivion. Pres Xi must be soiling his pants over that potential coupled with domestic pressures as their economy nose dives and elite wealth is trickling down the sewer. His lifetime employment could be ended very quickly if he doesn’t pull a rabbit out of the hat, so my money is on a very good trade deal for the US with the rest of the world following the lead. We don’t know the real numbers, but I would put money on Chinese GDP sliding under 5% for the foreseeable future. The billions invested by their elites in property throughout the world is quickly being repatriated and Chinese folks are ending up in gulags if they don’t so the panic is palpable. Thank god the US had the brains to refuse technology transfers on silicon chip manufacture.

    Reply

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