Surfer takes us through what it looks like while riding a perfect wave
[📹 gabrielmbenetton]pic.twitter.com/neSb34TWOd
— Massimo (@Rainmaker1973) June 22, 2026
The Year 536 AD Was So Bad It May Have Been the Worst Time in Human History to Be Alive ZME Science
Astronomers Catch the Glowing Shockwave of a Galaxy on the Move Universe Today
Women do not want male robots Ipsos
You Will Never Guess What Teens Are Doing in Waymos Futurism
COVID-19/Pandemics
Updated 2025-2026 COVID-19 Vaccine Nearly Halved ED Visits, Hospitalizations in CDC-Funded Study Pharmacy Times
Not if, but when: What could cause the next global pandemic? CGTN
Climate/Environment
Europe’s record heatwave: does the continent have a new climate? Nature
Environmental Defenders Remain Among World’s Most Targeted Activists Inside Climate News
South of the Border
Venezuela leader jeered as rescue efforts hampered Al Jazeera
Don’t Let Sanctions Strangle Cuba’s Transition To Markets Reason
Trump Claims Victory in Colombia as Right-Wing Populist Wins Presidential Election Drop Site News
China?
Humanoid robots in China are preparing for the World Cup!
pic.twitter.com/9xcqc0c4SK@AlbertoEMachado @Eli_Krumova…— Amitav Bhattacharjee (@bamitav) June 11, 2026
Global hydropower outlook report puts China at the head of the pack SCMP
Kill Chain Dominance: China’s is Producing More ‘Flying Radar’ Systems Than the World Combined Under the KJ-500 Program Military Watch Magazine
China’s tungsten export controls and AI chip demand collide, reshaping the global specialty gas supply chain Cryptopolitan
I Drove China’s Best-Selling Car. It’s On Top For A Reason Inside Evs
India
India’s late monsoon rains leave cities and fields parched SCMP
Protecting elephants helps safeguard India’s forests as powerful carbon stores: Study The Hindu
Africa
Who profits from Africa’s gold? Al Jazeera
As Ebola deaths top 300, African officials meet to boost regional readiness CIDRAP
European Disunion
EU targets Amazon and Microsoft cloud services under new Digital Markets Act rules technobezz
The EU’s Russia-veto problem has moved – from Orbán to Bulgaria’s Radev euobserver
EU gives US Trade Deal final approval ahead of Trump deadline The International Affairs
Old Blighty
Andy Burnham distanced himself from UK Prime Minister Starmer, but may be stuck with his policies AP
‘London cooking’: Why can’t the UK cope with the heat; when will it adapt? Al Jazeera
Israel v. Gaza, Yemen, Lebanon, Syria, Iran
🇱🇧 Hezbollah rejected the framework agreement signed in Washington on Friday, with MP Hassan Fadlallah warning that the Lebanese government cannot enforce it “except by engaging in a civil war, with the support of the United States.”
🔺 Speaking to Al-Mayadeen, Fadlallah said… https://t.co/Rzl0CJqUkJ pic.twitter.com/6wVnQGvkOw
— Drop Site (@DropSiteNews) June 26, 2026
Hezbollah chief rejects Lebanon-Israel deal, demands Israeli withdrawal Andolu AgencyBlame the War, Not the Peace Deal, for Iran’s Leverage The American Conservative
Could Israel’s coming election see an end to Netanyahu’s political career? Al Jazeera
The Executioner’s Noose, Not the Scales of Justice: Crime and Punishment in Israel and Palestine Fair Observer
UAW Divests from Israel Bonds Over Gaza The Analysis News
New Not-So-Cold War
Kyiv and Moscow trade strikes as Ukraine hits arms factory deep in Russia Euronews
Poland’s Tusk calls for ‘mutual respect’ during row with Ukraine BBC
Belarus’s leader is stuck between Kyiv and the Kremlin GZERO
Big Brother Is Watching You Watch
Personal Information at Risk The Revolving Door Project
Imperial Collapse Watch
California city rolls out ‘glamping’ for homeless amid fierce criticism over costs NY Post
It’s Been Two Years Since the Supreme Court Made Homelessness a Crime. The Result Speaks for Itself.
Trump 2.0
America’s 250th Celebration Is Donald Trump’s Lost Cause The New Republic
The expensive twist in Trump’s campaign against wind energy Quartz
New U.S. Iran Strikes Show Trump Has Started a ‘Forever War,’ Exasperated Officials Say Zeteo
After progressive US primary wins, Trump takes aim at ‘godless communists’ Al Jazeera
Musk Matters
Elon Musk wants to build a city called Starbase in Texas Mashable
Elon Musk Teases X Money: Is Dogecoin Officially Left Behind? Bitget App
Democrat Death Watch
John Fetterman ravages Democratic Party’s ‘orgy of socialism’ after primary turmoil NY Post
CBC pushes back on Slotkin’s call for ‘new leadership’ among Democrats The Hill
Centrist Democrats Rebuke Party’s Left Wing: ‘We Are Capitalist, Not Socialist’ NY Times
Immigration
Two SCOTUS Victories: One for Trump on TPS, the Other for the English Language on Asylum Center for Immigration Studies
UN calls for ‘prompt investigations’ of deaths in US immigration custody The Guardian
Our No Longer Free Press
TikTok Doesn’t Want Us To Talk About the News Talking Points Memo
AI News Summaries Are Becoming the New Gatekeepers of Information LA Progressive
Mr. Market Is Moody
Trump’s economic pivot isn’t coming. He’s made that clear. (Opinion) Daily Camera
‘That’s going to push prices higher’: Oil expert warns of rising prices this summer KIRO News Radio
Stock market posts weekly losses as tech sell-off deepens over OpenAI IPO delay ECIKS.org
AI
INSTEAD OF WATCHING AN HOUR OF NETFLIX TONIGHT.
This 60-minute Cambridge lecture by Demis Hassabis will teach you more about the future of AI than most people will learn in the next 5 years.
Bookmark it and give it an hour, no matter what. pic.twitter.com/BKOo9Isx7I
— Rohit (@ai_rohitt) June 27, 2026
The AI bubble has further to run despite the looming crash The Guardian
The Bezzle
Tokyo Police Arrest Sanctioned Prince Group Exec in $15B Crypto Scam Probe The Crypto Times
Americans are inundated with suspected scams. New polls show why few victims report them PBS
Guillotine Watch
Can you guess which royal has the most expensive engagement ring? 💍 pic.twitter.com/68a3NaAxcz
— HELLO! (@hellomag) April 7, 2022
World most expensive engagement ring is the Cartier ring once owned by Grace Kelly. The $38.8 million ring now belongs to the House of Grimaldi and is considered the most expensive engagement ring in the world
Results Obtained Finally God #ElluP Will Smith pic.twitter.com/54F8kQIaRV
— Expanded Network (@expandednetwork) March 6, 2023
Antidote du jour (via)
See yesterday’s Links and Antidote du Jour here



“Tesla CEO Elon Musk Pushes Back After Ford CEO Calls BYD Best EV Rival — Points To Key ‘Limiting Factor’ In China”
Elon Musk does not have to worry about this as he knows that the Federal government will stop low-cost EVs from entering America. Just a coupla days ago Polestar – a Swedish company – had its EV banned from the US because it could be a national security threat or something or other-
https://www.carsauce.com/news/polestar-banned-from-selling-new-cars-in-the-us-from-2027
This is why America can’t have nice things.
FYI: Polestar is owned by Geely, a Chinese company. I don’t agree with the ban on Chinese cars, just clarifying.
My Son in Law recently bought a Polestar rather than an ICE vehicle, it is well made.
As discerning readers know, neither “free market” nor “capitalism” define the american economy.
It’s a gigundus control fraud. Kind of like how pensions are required to invest in space x so the grifters can get out on top as just one of many examples.
More on the UAW’s divestment, from Due Diligence:
Auto Workers Union Votes To DIVEST From Israel
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBCzCiT04oI
Well this is great news. Combined with what the Reverend shared above the path is now open for our government to crush the union and then bailout the car companies so that they can handle the transition to EVs…
This is something Yves and others have discussed on NC for a while. People mention that investors have a say in what companies do and that the market will correct to accommodate their wishes but when shareholders attempt to do things that our elite don’t like the reaction from the government is often severe. I wonder how the Democrat party will react to a significant element of their support choosing to divest from Israel?
So, Lebanon is now a proxy war between Vance & Rubio.
Why not? There was a proxy war between the CIA and the Defense Department in Syria a coupla years ago. Only difference is that both Vance and Rubio want the Presidency.
“TikTok Doesn’t Want Us To Talk About the News”
Wasn’t that the whole point of Congress forcing the sale of Tik Tok so that the Ellisons could buy it up and censor it? You can watch all the cat videos that you want but as soon as the talk turns political on a social media platform, then out comes the censorship. I have to admit that it is a weird sort of censorship as a lot of hard right stuff is allowed to appear on those platforms and it is anything kinda lefty that is cracked down upon. I suppose this reflects the hard right views of the owners of those social media platforms like Musk and the Ellisons. What is certain is that no social media platform will be allowed to operate in the US unless it is US controlled and censored.
It’s a 3 pronged attack against dissemination of information that governments don’t want spread.
1. Ensure that the social media companies are owned by oligarchs happy to control information
2. Remove social media anonymity by forcing registration to prove age, and making VPN traffic either illegal or transparent to governments
3. Repeal Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act (CDA), so non social-media sites such as NC can’t afford the cost of checking every comment, or the risk of not checking
I’ve been noticing this “centrist democrat” talking point lately and it is a burr in my saddle. They are right wing dems vs left wing dems. They’re only “centrist” in the sense that they agree with the republicans on the most vile issues. If one sees centrist dems v left wing (hello, one wing does not make a bird.) dem meme it is absolute bs propaganda full stop.
By their fruits you shall know them-
https://xcancel.com/SabbySabs2/status/2069879252388810955#m
Is John Fetterman a “centrist democrat”? Because it sounds like he might jump ship and maybe go over to the Republicans. See the article in Links today-
https://nypost.com/2026/06/27/us-news/fetterman-calls-out-orgy-of-socialism-in-democratic-party/
This came up months ago and he denied he was going to switch parties.
Ugh opening that I was punished by an auto-play video. Death by fire. Forever.
Its propaganda to move the window so that only Center Right candidates can be considered. These people would lose their minds if an actual socialist ran. A quote from the article in NYP:
Too late. This has already been accomplished by moving so far right the powers that be cannot think of a society without mass surveillance, complete corporate control, and the crushing of any political opposition.
Well this talking point has existed for a long time and I’d argue it’s right wing dems vs slightly less right/center right dems but otherwise you’re speaking the facts.
One has to wonder how they think this plays with those of us who grew up with a New Deal/Great Society Democratic party. The virtual admission that they have all been essentially Republicans since the advent of the “New Dems” under Clinton answers a lot of questions they might not want asked.
Willie Nelson has a message from the party base to the Dem leaders and large donors.
I have always taken the view that “centrists” are those people that get f—-d by both sides simultaneously.
Politics ain’t beanbag bud.
“The Year 536 AD Was So Bad It May Have Been the Worst Time in Human History to Be Alive”
No doubt it was one bad time to live through. For those who would like an video version of this subject-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3YTfhJmh1I (11:39 mins)
I guess I need to check this subject out.
My first reaction was, “What about 2026?” 8 Billions, information at the speed of light, Anthropocene and Sixth Extinction, all bombarding the Monkey Mind with the Human Condition in a brutish, beautiful fundamentally inequitable closed loop system called spaceship earth?
Seeing the unrealized potential of choosing a new sustainable path through Love and Sharing?
What will the history books say?
Without a doubt, this year will be remembered as one of the worst in human history because of what has happened. To be honest, I am more pessimistic now than I was during the pandemic because I have no idea what the future holds.
Before you run out to see the Odyssey, this summer’s Barbie, you might reconsider participating in still another example of Anglo-American (Northwest Euro) projection of racial stereotypes, of colonialism, and of imperialism.
Farya Faraji gets this organized and gets it right. Meanwhile, rather than approaching these epics from the point of view of the People of the Olive Tree, Usonians get treated to another Red Maga Blue Maga extravaganza:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFn1JfOd3b0&t=4379s
Meanwhile, I’ll wait for the English to return to the Parthenon Marbles to Athens…
Per that link on scams:
I wonder whether Americans are particularly gullible due to culture and/or education…
Culture, education, Idiocracy, Covid brain damage . . . The list goes on and on.
Technology dependency
Our local police log shows occasional visits to the police by citizens who got scammed by phishing phone calls or bad Facebook Marketplace transactions. There’s nothing the police can do other than record the details of the encounter. There’s no practical way for most people to get any redress if they’ve been scammed, just “Freeze all your credit and notify your banks.” Which besides being a giant pain does nothing to punish the perps.
I used to live in boulder so I ventured to the daily camera link…
Trump recognizing an economic risk is not the same as pivoting his agenda to address an economic condition, like excruciatingly high prices for gas, groceries and other consumer goods. A healthy majority of voters have considered those issues a reality for most of the past year. If Trump was intent on fixing the economy, he wouldn’t spend all his time and political leverage attempting to convince congressional Republicans to pass legislation that has nothing to do with economy.
Yawn.
Right, because the other guys didn’t do the same damn thing.
Maybe they want us dead. Think of how much money that would save govts.
From Redacted: (guest has poor audio mic)
Canada’s MAID Program Is More DEMONIC Than We Thought
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCQ1DvEsA9I
In the US, of course, elderly people with covid infections were discharged into nursing homes where presumably could infect all the residents.
Then there’s the push in the US to allow transitioning of minors. Sterilizing minor children.
What is this nihilism in the modern West? Where did it come from? Who benefits?
No one benefits, but the extant elites imagine that they are immune to the fallout resulting from their policies.
I would also add the continuing degradation of the health care of the general population. This appears to be regulated by the material wealth and power of the individual involved.
The other “transition” I am watching is that of the American Republic into a formal American Empire. That seems to involve the emasculation of the American public. American politocos have been “clipped” for years already. Let us refer to it as “The Gelded Age.”
AND, as a free bonus, those patients discharged to nursing homes also infected nursing home workers, overwhelmingly underpaid people of color in the prime of their lives… until then.
Sad news under the morbidly curious category: just saw a headline that three fire fighters perished, and two were seriously injured, in a ‘blowover’ in far eastern Utah/ western Colorado conflagrations. Not even July.
The whirled news for the armchair- riding Gizmo-at-hand crew!
Screw oil and Ploymarket(tm) — it’s a Popcorn Futures kinda summer!
More on fires– linked yesterday, worth a read: from High County News https://www.hcn.org/issues/49-6/
– ‘CBC pushes back on Slotkin’s call for ‘new leadership’ among Democrats’ – The Hill
A fitting story for the ‘Democrat Death Watch’ section. The Congressional Black Caucus defends Establishment shill and Zionist champion Jeffries from CIA Democrat war defender Slotkin. I don’t know who Slotkin has in mind in terms of “new leadership,” but I’ll bet they’re not anti-war, anti-Zionist socialists.
Jeffries, Slotkin, Fetterman, “centrists” like Tom Suozzi and Josh Shapiro – now that’s what I call a Democrat Death Watch!
It appears Nancy Pelosi will exit with a whimper, not a bang.
When I mention that we haven’t hear much from Pelosi on Gaza, Iran or Ukraine, people respond with “but she’s not in office”.
But she is until January 2027.
Hangin with Mitch and and Grassley
The Katie Halper Show with Thomas Frank, from last year.
‘The Democratic Party Is A Walking Corpse’ – Thomas Frank.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lm6iB39jFvs
Democratic socialists – the term is being used divisively by the Dems and Republicans…why even Joe Biden said there will be no socialism when he was campaigning. I prefer progressive as the more appropriate note.
What is socialism? why do we not call the republican party the Republican Fascists?
Are we talking in stark terms when it should be on a continuum? Is it too hard to imagine, outside the binary, that the nation is composed and operated with a mixed socio/economic dynamic which has, many times, swung through different compositions?
Are both parties in lockstep where any shift towards progressivism is deemed a threat to their own power? If yes, then it is an example of abusive power – ‘where they wield the peoples authority for their own interests or for a narrow faction……’- “A Resistance History of the United States
by Tad Stoermer” (the best read in my opinion – well, also Thoreau)
Was it socialisms (progressive) dominate mix that brought us the electric grid? The dams and infrastructure? Social Security, landing on the moon? the atomic bomb? the declaration of independence? the constitution?….I digress and overstate the point.
A few days ago – I heard that Trump was supposed to sign a ‘the most biggest change in housing affordability legislation .. bipartisan bill ever. -21st century road to housing act.
After reading that…I thought, that the bill has a hole in it so large… an entire interstate highway for the FIRE sector could be built with all the on ramps, exits, highway robbers and toll takers to make bank -with a final offramp on this road called serfdom via the Genius Act with the stable coin toll booth shakedown.
Maybe it was a good thing that it was not signed….even a blind squirrel finds a nut – .
Anyway – thanks for your tolerance
The uniparty feels “a tremor in the force.” / ;)
Oh the horrors!
Mamdani rent freeze cheers weary tenants, alarms landlords
https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/realestate/mamdani-delivers-rent-freeze-in-milestone-for-nyc-tenants/ar-AA26yqyv
Will no one think of the donor class!? / ;)
For quite some time now, I have felt that most of the bills that manage to receive “bi-partisan” support sufficient to pass both House and Senate are poison pills for the left, however you define that. Perhaps this is because there are far too many Democrats who believe in some sort of mythic common sense practicality where all interested parties can get a fair shake and no apple carts get turned over. I’m thinking here of Democrats like Chris Coons, Glenn Ivey, Wes Moore, etc etc. I wouldn’t include Fetterman in this group; he’s just a useful shill for them, an excuse.
These Dems think of themselves as very knowledgeable and unfairly attacked for their pragmatism. These are the sort of politicians whose pragmatism got us the ACA. They are Rube Goldberg machers who always hand-wave toward a better future that can only be assured by sticking with the patchwork make-do bullshit they and their friends across the aisle pass. And they always tell you how HARD it was.
They are either personally very wealthy or taking big donations from the likes of AIPAC and big tech/pharma/ag/finance/federal contractors. They are corrupt without actually being criminal. They are power-hungry and responsibility-averse. They are not adult except in size.
As I’ve been fond of saying, whenever anything in Washington is bipartisan, hold on to your wallet: You’re about to be robbed.
….and… they do what amounts to insider trading on their own accounts with foreknowledge of what bills are about to be passed, what govt expenses are about to be made to the MIC, to AI, to pharma, etc. Unusual whales they are.
/ ;)
They don’t want anything upsetting that apple cart, imo.
Nancy (D):
https://hillsignals.com/nancy-pelosi-tracker
Tim (R):
https://hillsignals.com/tim-moore-tracker
re: Communism vs. Bolsheviks
How the 20th Century Almost Turned Out Very Differently
Before Lenin consolidated power, Russian workers were running their own factories and peasants were seizing their own land. A decentralized, commons-based revolution was already underway — until the Bolsheviks crushed it.
By Dave Darby / substack.com
https://www.filmsforaction.org/articles/commons-not-communism-part-3-how-the-20th-century-almost-turned-out-very-differently/
an aside: interesting book about one aspect of the RU economics of the time.
Bankers and Bolsheviks: International Finance and the Russian Revolution
https://www.amazon.com/Bankers-Bolsheviks-International-Finance-Revolution/dp/0691170169
Cool.
I ran across this last year or so and forgot.
You read it?
Vatican accuses EU of double standards on war
From AI is creating America’s next underclass
John needs to explore a little more deeply what LLMs actually are: stochastic parrots.
Outside of limited domains where we can validate the output rigorously (not law or medicine) such as coding, and where the project is simply a one-shot, I don’t think so. Have fun maintaining the technical debt from an LLM authored and managed code base. What’s more, after people lose those skills, no one is even going to know how to manage these things. You’ll have to “trust” the LLM to get it right.
There was a post from Eric Elliott, a popular JavaScript software engineer, that’s deep into LLMs and said once that he was an early tester of ChatGPT. Anyway, he’d said that agents, you need rigorous tests for the output and multiple adversarial agents testing the code base, or something similar, and my reply was wow that must be really expensive! It’s going to be cheaper to have humans.
When the token subsidies finally end, we’re gonna see just how much cheaper humans are. As a bonus, you can reproduce your own profession. (Not particularly relevant to elite, but ought to be for the rest of us.)
John’s another dutiful idiot that’s singing Jensen’s tune.
I didn’t see your comment while I was plodding along on mine, below. But I should probably clarify that I only granted the technical argument in order to address what I saw as the core stupidity of the piece.
My nit-picking supports your overall point.
In narrow cases it is possible to prove code correct, but in the general case it is not possible. E.g.:
If one can’t figure out whether the program will halt on specific input then it’s clearly not possible to know whether it performs correctly on all potential inputs. Testing can increase confidence, but (again, except in narrow cases) it cannot exhaust all possible inputs and behaviours. You can’t test every input, so you have to have insight into which inputs might cause problems. Did you test the code on February 29? On 2000-01-01? When 32-bit Unix timestamps overflow on 2038-01-19?
Computers excel at repetition. If you’re coding the same thing over and over it’s only because you haven’t gotten around to implementing it in a reusable way. DRY, as they say: Don’t Repeat Yourself. A lot of programming is rote, probably partly because it maps neatly onto repeatable industrial practices making managers feel that the work is predictable and under control, when in fact it’s wasteful, and because of a belief that hiring interchangeable mediocre programmers is preferable to being dependent on excellence.
The real challenge in software is a negotiation between requirements and capabilities. Requirements seem easy, but no-one really knows what they want until they do it: in part because you can’t have exactly what you want – the limitations of the technology (or of reality) force trade-offs, which in turn require judgment. Then there’s the problem of implementing it in a maintainable way. As Dijkstra pointed out, the problem of programming is not communicating with the computer – it’s happy to accept machine code. The purpose of programming languages is to communicate with humans, not machines. Programming is in this sense a lot like writing. Clarity, concision and structure and structure are as important as correctness. Understanding someone else’s code is hard, but if you can’t understand what it does you are liable to have difficult knowing whether it does it correctly, which edge cases should be tested, how to maintain or extend it, or the subtle understanding of the problem domain that may be embedded in it. (Question: is AI any good at understanding what code does or is for?)
I haven’t done any programming recently, but I been told that AI can be very helpful for programming – within limits. Programming is not like an industrial process. The part that matters is the irreducible core of originality and relationship to real world practice. Jevon’s Paradox may apply. Even if it did replace coders the problem of requirements would remain. By reducing the cost of programming AI could increase demand for developers.
Fear of falling double feature
“AI is creating America’s next underclass”
Yes, because when automation replaces skilled labor with de-skilled labor, the de-skilled labor is always paid more, and is super secure, too!
O RLY?
“It’s Been Two Years Since the Supreme Court Made Homelessness a Crime. The Result Speaks for Itself.”
Somehow the liberal chestnut Donald Trump embodies the American id, dutifully rolled out for his routine displays of racism and misogyny, never applies to his attitude toward the homeless,* even though, unlike those other prejudices, it’s almost universal, and universally acceptable.
It can’t be repeated enough that homelessness is our society’s mechanism for keeping everyone else in line, the real kicker in the late Alan Greenspan’s favored worker insecurity.
*This is probably the best-established manifestation of his tendency to perceive suffering and those who experience it as a hygiene problem for others, though not the only one–see Gaza. Trump could read “The Death of the Ball Turret Gunner,” and his response would be: Ehh, yeah, hose that shit out.
NC in violation of the peace agreement following the Civil War. States are prohibited from displaying the flag of the Confederacy. So, now we’re talking treason again.
1334 PDT
Russian lawmaker threatens to ‘blow up half of Finland,’ says country turning into ‘second Ukraine’
https://www.yahoo.com/news/world/articles/russian-lawmaker-threatens-blow-half-170454980.html
Iraqi forces raid Baghdad Green Zone, arrest officials linked to corruption, Iran-backed groups
https://www.timesofisrael.com/iraqi-forces-raid-baghdad-green-zone-arrest-officials-linked-to-corruption-iran-backed-groups/
Intercept:
Cops Warn CEO Bodyguards That Luigi Mangione Fever Could Spark Class War
Really? Who coulda thunk it?
“Centrist Democrats Rebuke Party’s Left Wing: ‘We Are Capitalist, Not Socialist’ ” NY Times
Just wanted to improve accuracy of headline: “Centrist Democrats Rebuke Party’s Left Wing: ‘We support welfare for corporations, Not for people!’ ”
See for example, AI bailout, the start of which is already underway with bipartisan support! Not to mention the ever growing Military Industrial Congressional Complex, Prison Industrial Complex etc etc